I have a few letters in the queue for my delicious little muffins, including this one from a delightful little chicken with a fantastic opportunity coming up...
Before I begin what I am sure will be a thoughtful and somber reply to this reader's question, I have to point out one phrase that is seriously cracking my ass up...Dear Dr. Isis,
Wearer of hot shoes, doer of hot science, role model to women everywhere and drinker of bad-ass Jameson whiskey [I think I have been mistaken for someone else]...I beseech you to bestow upon me your vast wisdom and insight.
I am a lowly undergraduate student who has managed to land myself a fairly impressive undergraduate thesis project at the incredibly impressive [REDACTED]. I am wicked excited about this project and totally looking forward to spending the next 8 months of my life on it. My direct supervisor is a wonderful guy, but has never had a thesis student of his own before (he has one masters student and one postdoc who he co-supervises with the incredibly important head of the [REDACTED]). I have only met him once but get the impression from this meeting and email correspondence that he is more or less clueless about the logistics (paperwork, training, employment paperwork, evaluation etc) of having a thesis student. Do you have any suggestions for how I can go about dealing with this, not only initially but throughout my project? I can totally show up with a stack of papers for him to sign or send him emails with instructions but I don't want to seem bossy or that I am overstepping my role as an undergraduate student in any way.
Any advice you have will undoubtedly be bad-ass and wonderful, and would be much appreciated.
Lowly (but excited!) Undergrad
and totally looking forward to spending the next 8 months of my life on it.I can't help myself. It gives me uncontrollable giggles when undergraduates qualify some amount of time they've spent on something as part of "their life," as though this conveys importance. As though that portion of "their life" is some amount of the hourglass that dare not be wasted on triviality. Mind you, I am not saying that these experiences aren't valuable, that ambition isn't important, and that I don't take undergraduate research experiences seriously. There are 5 undergraduates working for me in the lab right now. At least, they had better be working if they know what's good for them. It's just that 8 months is about the amount of time in my career that I've spent doing things like scratching my ass, cracking wise, and watching hilarious Youtubes. I'd argue that none of that 8 months, other than the time spent cracking wise, was very important in the scope of my career. I mean, the 5 minutes I stopped typing this so that I could drop a deuce is part of "my life", but those 5 minutes were actually crucial to the rest of my productivity for the day. So, let's all agree that we are not ever going to qualify the importance of anything by telling people that the time it takes to complete something comes out of "our lives." The shit we do is either important in advancing our careers, or it's not.
Video 1: I wonder how much of his career famous (and now 100 year old) physiologist Richard Bing spent cracking wise? This 10 minutes documentary is worth a watch if you are an aspiring scientist. Happy Birthday, Dr. Bing!
But, back to this darling and delightful little muffin's question. How does she handle all of the administrative bullshit that comes with her project and assure that it all gets done? Let's begin with the central theorem to what will be the rest of our discussion - if you are a big enough girl to have a thesis project, then the completion of all of this is your responsibility alone. Why? Because you're the only one who's going to suffer if it doesn't get done.
Now, presumably if your future advisor has made it to faculty-type status, he's not a complete dumbass, but I really can't be sure. So, rather than give you advice on how to deal with some dude that I don't know, I figured I would tell you how I interact with my boss and let you take any pearls of totally, smoking hot wisdom that become apparent. First I offer you these data:
Figure 1: Dr. Isis explains the bullshit factor. I realize that my backgrounds on the two panels are different, but I have too much bullshit in my life to be bothered to fix things. The top panel demonstrates the relative amount of bullshit per unit time as a function of career level. The bottom panel demonstrates the importance of each individual piece of bullshit in determining the advancement of your career.
I am currently at a point in my career where my bullshit level is moderate, but the relative importance of each piece of bullshit is high - the biosketches and letters for each grant application, formatting for each journal article submission, modifications to my appointment, etc - each has the ability to affect my career. So, my motivation to complete these things is pretty high. My boss, on the other hand, is at a point in his career where he has a fuckton more bullshit in his life than I do - both his own and the bullshit of all those who work under him. However, he's a firmly tenured dude with solid funding, so the likelihood that any individual piece of bullshit (especially bullshit that is not his) is going to affect him is low.
So, if I need him for something and I want to be sure that he's going to do it, then I need to make it as easy for him to do as possible. I highlight the places he needs to sign, give him specific instructions, and always deliver and pick up any paperwork he is helping me with. That way I never have a situation where I miss a deadline because he forgot it on his desk. I know that he means well. It's just that mine is but a kernel of corn in the big, stinking pile of bullshit he is currently dealing with.
Figure 2: It's basically exactly like that.
While this reader shouldn't boss her thesis advisor around per se, preparedness and organization go a long way toward getting people to do what you need them to do. The easier you make a job for someone, the more likely they are to do it efficiently and in a way that you are satisfied with. And, compared to someone who waits passively and expects things to be done for her, I think it goes a long way toward demonstrating your commitment to advancing your career.
So, get your shit done, little muffin. While you're at it, find my appointment letter.
Education
Life Science
Comments
Amen. I LOVE it when my students show up with forms and tell me where to sign, or when they give me several weeks' notice for recommendation letters, with nice neat lists of addresses and deadlines. I wish they would bug me more often about stuff, as I tend to forget what I've agreed to do and let things get buried in my inbox. So far most of my undergrads have been much too worried about bothering me, but a nice reminder email a few days in advance of a deadline is never a bad thing -- if I've been on the ball and finished the task I will happily let you know. And you will impress me by seeming competent, self-motivated, and generally like someone who has her shit together.
As usual, Isis, the visual aids are priceless. Good thing I don't aspire to be King!
Posted by: Asphericity | March 1, 2010 12:10 AM
grad bullshit > or = postdoc bullshit? you have got to be kidding me.
(you were just waiting for that comment, i know, so i went and got it out of the way for you.)
basically, getting your shit together as much as possible is the way to go. my first day here involved meeting with the boss for 5 minutes, wherein boss basically said "ok go" and i went and ran around to attend all the paperwork duties and get everything organized for formal signatures, while boss worked on some brilliant idea on procuring some more funding for the lab. (or watched youtube videos, what the fuck do i know.)
Posted by: leigh | March 1, 2010 12:15 AM
I'm not in an acedemic environment but I do have a significant amount of people reporting into me who require administrative stuff done from time to time.
My main piece of advice is to not let things get to very last minute. I hate it when someone comes up to me and tells me I have to write up a letter or review documentation and it's needed in 10 mins. Much better to provide it early with bullet points or brief synopsis of what it is and what I need to do. Then put a reminder in your calender for a few days in advance to remind me. At the end of the day, the documentation is more important to you than to me (much as that might sound petty). Also bear in mind that I may be away from the office regularly (or in meetings) so bear that in mind.
At the end of the day - it is not bossing the boss - it is effective time management.
Posted by: Morgan | March 1, 2010 6:12 AM
Being efficient and telling your mentors exactly what they need to do and when they need to do it with sufficient lead time is not "bossy"; it is welcome. And FYI, what seems like sufficient lead time to you is likely insufficient for someone further along on the bullshit continuum. This includes--most importantly--lead time to make an appointment. My calendar is nearly completely full for the entire rest of the semester, and I am not a department chair, dean, or any other type of administrative muckety-muck.
Posted by: Comrade PhysioProf | March 1, 2010 7:29 AM
I totally agree with Dr. Isis and all the commenters -- think of it as relieving your soon-to-be boss of some of the bullshit on his plate rather than as bossing him around. I try to keep track of deadlines that affect my students or other supervisees, but the best thing is for them to be proactive, and say "Here, sign this." That way, the paperwork gets in on time, and the person who is most impacted by it gets what they need. Win-win for all.
Posted by: Rebecca | March 1, 2010 7:33 AM
At my MRU, it has been elevated to a new height. Everyone is expected to write their own letters: for promotion, for grants, for requests that go up the line, for anything. This is not a blessing in disguise: it is one more thing about which one is judged.
Posted by: arrzey | March 1, 2010 8:25 AM
All the advice was awesome, as always, but it does make me feel very small when you gushed about how sweet the little undergrad was for thinking of eight months as a long time. I can totally understand why, I mean eight months *is* quite a small amount of time, but the amount undergrads are often expected to fit into that time is insane. For comparison, my term year is six months long (three x two month terms) in which I have to try and leant/write about/get examined on most of biochemistry. My dissertation has to be written on a project that I'm only allowed four months of lab time to complete and the longest summer project I've ever had was three months long.
So yeah. Sorry if this email comes across as pedantic, but eight months for an undergrad does seem like a significant portion of time, and of your life :)
Posted by: Lab Rat | March 1, 2010 8:52 AM
As an undergrad and grad student at MFRU I worked for/with a variety of academic rock stars, including several from the European academic community, who simply could not grasp the absurd bureaucracy of American academia. I found myself "managing" these world famous scholars in the most hilarious of circumstances, including one professor who did not understand the difference between "pass/fail" courses and another who left me, his undergrad academic secretary to oversee his graduate student t.a.'s filing of final grades.
In the process, I developed quite a lovely maternalistic, quasi- nagging streak for a young twenty something year old. Think explaining to a preschooler level, and write it all down, preferably in a number list with correspondingly numbered forms (as attachment or in paper if your school is really that archaic).
The most brilliant of people are often allowed to go through life TOTALLY clueless about the routine bullshit the rest of us comprehend. Fair? probably not, but hey we can't all be brilliant. In the meantime focus on how good those letters of recs will look when signed by world famous scholar.
Posted by: feMOMhist | March 1, 2010 9:08 AM
First, 8 months can seem like a very long time. Take pregnancy, for example...
Second, bringing docs to your supervisor to sign and making your bullshit as easy as possible for your supervisor is not being "bossy," it's being efficient. I just took on a doctoral student, and I am still trying to figure out what paperwork must be done when. If no one tells me, it won't get done.
Posted by: Pascale | March 1, 2010 9:59 AM
I have a prof (my advisor and PI) who i have to hound to get shit done, otherwise it doesn't happen.
ex: After 2 cycles of applying to REU programs, I knew well enough that I had to be on his back about sending out letters of recommendation (this means, printed out LOR forms, timeline sheet with highlighted due-dates, follow-up emails and spontaneous drop-bys his office). If i didn't do this, my letters would be either sent months late, or never at all.
I'm still an undergrad, and the prof hasn't disowned me yet.. so it pays to be a little bit independent (and bossy)
Posted by: Eugenie | March 1, 2010 10:03 AM
The technical name for this is not being bossy, its "managing up." You will be doing this for the rest of your life unless you get to the point where there is no one above you on the organizational chart.
I would also add, even though a variety of forms and procedures may indicate that your boss is supposed to tell you how stuff works, he probably doesn't know. Find out who the keeper of the bullshit is and befriend him/her. As an undergrad it was the department secretary, in grad school it was the most senior grad student on my team, at my current government job it is split between several admin staff.
Posted by: katydid13 | March 1, 2010 12:38 PM
"Focus on the high-order bits", as we say in CS. As Umesh Vazirani says, "if you've never missed a flight, you're spending too much time in airports". If you've never had a student pressure you to do something they need done, you're spending far too much time keeping tabs on them.
Posted by: lylebot | March 1, 2010 1:35 PM
I was about to post exactly what katydid13 said- it is called managing up, and it is a skill you need regardless of where you work.
I also second her advice for befriending the keeper of the bullshit.
Finally, I will say that learning to accept the bullshit and just get it taken care of as efficiently as possible is a very valuable skill. Sure, vent about it over a beer or two. But don't waste your time fighting it....
Posted by: Cloud | March 1, 2010 1:39 PM
I have to agree with everybody (though I have yet to miss a flight doe to neurotic tendencies.)
For me it's being in charge of writing, submitting and enforcing our IACUC, while not actually being allowed to say, read the whole thing. (Long story) A few months ago I had 6 revisions to submit, all of which look the same from the front page. When I finally hunted down my PI to have him sign them, I told him what they were ('cause that's reasonable) and finally he asked me how I knew which one was which. He seemed surprised that I had written them (and more to the point, printed them out and stacked them).
I find that, in desperate times, cookies can be very effective at getting one's PI's attention. And the one co-author I can't keep track of personally? That paper still ain't published.
Posted by: JustaTech | March 1, 2010 2:21 PM
Agreed. Fully. Up-managing is not only the most efficient way to get stuff done fast, it is also the *best* way to get stuff done the way I want it to be done. Plus, it's learning for later and PI is amazed at my efficiency.
One thing I want to add:
The only thing to watch out for is (especially as a women) not to fall into the secretary trap, - only do things you need to do for yourself. I've seen people starting out as independent researchers, up-managing a lot, ending up in secretary positions...
Posted by: Fia | March 1, 2010 4:24 PM
Lab Rat, you know how very much I *heart* you, but what makes you think that this is any different from being a grad student, postdoc, or junior faculty?
I'm not saying that being an undergrad isn't hard, but I am frankly weary of the delusion that the life of an undergrad is any more stressful or task-filled than someone more senior. At least you folks get like 4 months off.
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | March 1, 2010 4:28 PM
Looking back it is interesting to think how important everything seemed at each stage of life and career. And I agree that now it is not the importance of individual responsibilities, but the sheer volume of crap to juggle. If I did not lean on my to-do list as heavily as I do I would never sleep. I remember being told as a grad student that career stuff (and life in general) would continue to get more complicated as you moved along the chain, but I never quite believed it. But it turns out to be true.
Yes, students and fellow faculty, please keep bugging me about what I need to do for you. And all you undergrads out there working with profs, don't feel bad about bugging us. Polite (or at least relatively polite) reminders are encouraged.
Posted by: Mason Posner | March 1, 2010 10:28 PM
LabRat, you are forgetting that all of us were once undergrads and that many of us did undergraduate laboratory theses. We get it. That's the first really big project, for most people. But the work that took me weeks as an undergraduate took me a couple of days later in my career, because I got a lot faster and better in the lab.
Moreover, keep in mind that many of the people in this thread are parents - people who have committed to a full-time-plus project of 18 years and beyond. Naturally looking at four months in the lab plus four months of full-time writing is going to seem pretty brief by comparison, and the "cramming a lot in" argument is going to cut no ice with them.
At risk of sounding like that guy who tells you about plastics or to be kind to your knees, let me please advise you to enjoy the hell out of writing your thesis. Not for the prestige, not for the project, but for the sheer rare pleasure of having it be the expectation that you will spend most of your waking hours for those 8 months working on and writing about that research question in extreme detail. There just aren't that many chances to write in deep and broad detail in science, and to do so when you are relatively devoted to that single task.
Posted by: ginger | March 2, 2010 12:49 AM
"I'm not saying that being an undergrad isn't hard, but I am frankly weary of the delusion that the life of an undergrad is any more stressful or task-filled than someone more senior"
Oh I know that everyone working above me (as it were) has waaay more stressful things to do, I just have to look at all the grant applications and crazy-organisational skills of my PI to be very thankful that I still am an undergrad. I just get a bit annoyed when people seem to assume that undergrads do *nothing* other than go out drinking/waste time and resources/etc. I certainly wasn't suggesting that undergrads do *more* work, just that we sort of tend to get a million deadlines squeezed into eight weeks, which makes it seem more like six months.
And my four months off tend to metamorphosise into summer projects, but I suppose that's my own fault.
Thanks so much for your reply!
@ginger: Don't worry, I love my thesis! I've really enjoyed all the lab work this term, despite the frustrating moments. And yeah, I know that most people posting have been through everything I have and more, that's why I come back here so often, to read everyone else's advice and experience, in the hope I might be a bit more prepared when it all happens to me.
Sorry if my above post came off as being condescending. I think it was written in a bit of a pissed off mood.
Posted by: Lab Rat | March 2, 2010 5:10 AM