If you've been following the Twitter, you've seen that viruses and bacteria continue to colonize the Isis house. We're basically fighting mutations of a plague we picked up in January. I'm going to shake it. I really, really am. If I don't fully recover in the next few days, I am going to consider autoclaving my house and just starting over.
Figure 1: An artist's rendition of Casa de Isis on this upcoming Sunday.
It's been strange to be away from blogging for several days. I think this is the longest amount of time I have gone sans post. So, I'm going to ease my way back in slowly with an email from one of you lovely little muffins. I have been so terribly neglectful of you all.
Reader Bella PhD writes...
Dear Dr. Isis,
I have pretty much read every single word you have ever written as I am addicted to you and your blog and everything you write. I love love LOVE your blog, your writing style, your raw honesty and your pure desire to help eradicate sexism and misogyny, one step at a time. [This letter is starting strong...]
Plus you have hot shoes and I have to tell you, I have slowly been evolving from tom-boy to semi-girl over the past few years and you are the reason I bought my first pair of heels (a pair of Naughty Monkeys, in case you were wondering) :)
I have a question for you - I know you came to academia from industry and I was hoping you may be able to help me.
I originally went into my PhD thinking I wanted to be a faculty member and nothing else. Last few years of my PhD showed me enough horrors that I started to have doubts about wanting a faculty position - at least not for now, and maybe not ever.
I started a postdoc because my advisor refused to write me recomm. letters for a non-academic job because he thinks it would be such a huge loss to science if I left academia (he's usually a good guy, but he has his "I know best moments"!). Anyway, I am about 5 months into my first postdoc and absolutely miserable. My PI not involved, I work directly with a Res Prof (RP) who works with my PI, so I am only in contact with the RP. And RP is the most obnoxious, sexist, manipulative, patronizing person I have ever met (he treats everyone like this, not just me), and I am even more miserable now than I was in grad school (and I never even thought that was possible, so that's saying something!!). And the icing on the cake, he belittles my ideas and tells me how stupid they are, only to go around and modify a tiny angle and re-suggest my ideas as "his". Plus, I constantly get to hear that all papers produced from the lab result only from his brilliance idea, but because of the flawed system, he is robbed of being first author and it goes to us lowly postdocs.
And yes, I did ask the right questions in the interview - I was interviewed by PI, asked all the right questions and did the research about PI, about whom everyone could only rave.. and was surprised to learn when I started that I was not working directly with the PI. And no, talking to the PI about RP will not work - others before me have tried extensively, and I have tried briefly, but in PI's eyes, RP can do wrong and it is all our fault!
This is the only major research uni in the vicinity, and I can't go looking for a postdoc elsewhere in the univ as they all collaborate with each other and if I leave, I'd still have to work with him, only then he would hate me and I have seen what he does to people he hates - I don't even want to attempt that.
And I can't leave the area I am currently in as because of my husbands work - we are stuck here for at least 2.5 years while he wraps things up.
Anyway, the bottom line is, I want out of my current postdoc. I figure I can spend the "postdoc years" in industry, and if/when the horrors of the past few years ever fade, I may return and apply for a faculty position, but that's definitely not the path I want to be on right. So the point of all this rambling is... how does one goes about searching for a job in industry? I have no idea how to go about it and could use ANY advice you could provide, either from your experience or from others you know
Thanks so much!
Bella
First, a bit of a disclosure. I have confess that the entire time I was reading Bella's letter, I kept thinking about this:
Figure 2: I can't help it! Those ubiquitous R-Pattz images have ruined me!
But, back to business at hand. Bella's dilemma is tough because, like the above pictured Bella, she's in a crappy situation and is being lured by the sweet, seductive, and sparkly vampire allure of industry. I can't blame her. Since I am admired for my raw honesty and smoking hotness, I throw some down here. About a year ago I was having a tough time at MRU and seriously entertained the idea of returning to industry. I sent some resumes out and had phone conversations with some people at local companies.
Figure 3: An artist's rendition of Dr. Isis falling into the sparkly, seductive arms of industry.
At the end of it all, though, I remembered that even the most beautiful of sparkly industry vampires will suck out your soul. I decided to stay at MRU and try to remedy the problems I had been having.
So I suppose my first piece of advice to this fair Bella is to not jump into industry simply because its not your current situation. Go into industry because you want to - not simply as an escape. I've been in both environments and both have some components of major, hardcore suckage. The question is what types of suckage are you willing to tolerate? If you have former labmates or friends that have gone into industry, ask them about their experiences. You can also try a forum like MentorNet for contacts with people currently working in industry.
But, first and foremost you've got to discern whether this move is the right move for you. Touch base with your career center and talk to some colleagues that you might trust enough to confide your plans in. I find my most successful decisions are made when I have multiple perspectives.
Good luck Bella!
Jobs
Education
Comments
I agree with Dr. Isis that industry shouldn't just be a fall back move for you--only go there if that's what you truly want. Also keep in mind that the days of easily finding a job in industry (especially with a Ph.D.) are loooong gone. There have been a lot of layoffs, and competition for good industry jobs is pretty tough.
We just hired a new scientist, and we wouldn't have considered someone just out of grad school after a short postdoc stint. I don't think we're alone in wanting scientists who have done quality postdoc work, with the publications to show for it.
I'm also curious about how much industry there is in this place where there are such limited academic postdoc opportunities. Are your industry options there really any better?
Posted by: Betsy | March 12, 2010 2:32 PM
Many sympathies on the situation, it sucks that these other people are such idiots. Who refuses to write letters because they disagree with your career choice? But it sounds like you need to bail and bail soon (been there, done that). While I agree one shouldn't be overly rosy about industry, the sooner you get out of your current situation, the sooner you can get on with the next step. Dragging it out is only going to hurt your resume. There are lots of postdoc opportunities, but don't discount finding a postdoc in another area. Nobody likes to be separated from their spouse (been there, done that too), but sometimes it's necessary unless you want to leave science. It comes with the territory of academia, so you may as well just accept it for now, and hope you can then avoid having to do it again later when you've got family responsibilities and a mortgage. Look for a new position in a place your husband would like to move to after he's done. And someplace where there are industry possibilities after you've done some good postdoc work. Two years is not that long, and perhaps he will be motivated to finish early. People often write up previous work remotely.
You could also stay where you are & not have to deal with the terrible guy if you changed projects and/or fields. Not easy, but something's got to give! Look for an opportunity to branch into something new.
Posted by: neurowoman | March 12, 2010 4:06 PM
As a happy member of the guild of industrial vampires, maybe I'm not the best person to comment. But then again, if you're serious about going into industry you need to know how to get an industry job, and no, it is not generally to just send in a resume. Every single job I've ever gotten in industry has come in some way from networking. If you aren't already on LinkedIn, get on it and start building a network. Then start asking people in your network for informational interviews about their jobs. It is perfectly OK, and even expected, to do this to your second order contacts (i.e., "friends of friends"). Just get your first order contact to send an introductory email.
But first, think seriously about what you want. As Betsy says, industry jobs aren't as plentiful as they used to be. Hiring managers can be picky because there are a lot more candidates out there right now, and they are unlikely to hire someone if they think she views their job as a consolation prize. They are also unlikely to hire someone who comes across as bitter about how her previous position played out. So take the time to figure out what you want and to get to a place where you can talk about it professionally (even if you still vent bitterly about it over beers with your friends).
Good luck!
Posted by: Cloud | March 12, 2010 4:32 PM
Oh, and Dr. Isis... I wish we could autoclave our house, too. All four of us have been sick to some degree since the end of January. Ugh.
Posted by: Cloud | March 12, 2010 4:37 PM
Dance Therapy? Worth a try, I suppose.
Posted by: D. C. Sessions | March 12, 2010 6:45 PM
I find that dunking everybody in a vat of bleach works well too. Sometimes I rig up systems like farmers use to keep the flies down: strips of bleach dripping stuff hanging across the doorway so everybody entering the house gets disinfected.
Good luck to you and to Bella
Posted by: brook | March 12, 2010 7:49 PM
The intertubes is your friend! Start and see if your state has a list of all the biotech companies. Then, go through the list and send out your CV to every place that has a job you're close to applicable for. It sucks, and takes a while, but it's the most thorough way. Ask your friends in the area who are scientists if they know of any place hiring.
I have to ask though. Why does industry have such a stigma against it from academia folks (besides their insane funding)?
Posted by: Ktbug Ladydid | March 12, 2010 7:56 PM
Yeah...Big Pharma vampire here (can I be Star from The Lost Boys, then? we are extra evil). We are laying Ph.Ds off, not hiring. Last time we were hiring for a Ph.D. level position, we got something like 100 CVs for one position. The vast, vast majority of those CVs were from folks with multiple postdocs and great publications, many from Ivies and near-Ivies. We got it narrowed down to 10-12 by throwing out all the CVs that didn't have previous industrial experience or at least industrial collaborations.
Bella could try looking for industrial postdocs. Although they tend to be rarer than hen's teeth these days. Her best bet is probably a startup or rather small company--they will be less picky, and the pay won't be great (better than academia, but not as much as the big boys pay), but there is less competition for the job of Chief Button-Pusher at NeverHeardOfIt Labs, LLC than there is for Lowliest Bottle-Washer at Merck.
Posted by: Lora | March 12, 2010 8:06 PM
Oh Dr Isis,
The autoclave thing is painful but it will pass..ya know ...one of those things. Just did it last week and my 3-yrs old was cranky with all the trafficking and so on but after a while he was happy again.
Good luck to you and keep blogging.
Cuchicuchi
Posted by: cuchicuchi | March 12, 2010 11:25 PM
Good to see you back Isis! BTW, had no idea that you did the industry thing before you found yourself in academia - amazing how we all end up where we are.
As for Bella's predicament, I agree with most of the comments that you must find what works for you. If you're miserable, then thinking about change is probably not a bad idea, and you should definitely listen to Betsy and Cloud (and many others in industry) about how to pursue an industry career. You might also think of looking into government options. In most cases, you'll need to pursue a new postdoc, but it sounds like this is definitely the time to take that leap.
Just remember - all jobs have bad days, no matter where you are. I love the academic track I'm on (so far), but I have my days where I want nothing more than to escape. The grass is always greener...
Posted by: Dr. O | March 12, 2010 11:53 PM
Bello,
Thinking about change is always a good idea. It keeps you ready for the unknown, which is always a possibility.
I hope you find yourself very soon where you'd like to be, fully enjoying life.
Posted by: merriam | March 13, 2010 12:06 AM
Bella,
Just follow your own instinct. Trying to guess what is in Dr Isis's mind when she gives advices is too hard to comprehend.
Good luck to you
Posted by: avatar | March 14, 2010 10:06 AM
Ha ha ha. Oh, the hilarity...
Posted by: Isis the Scientist | March 14, 2010 10:34 AM
Isis, great advice. Like you, "I've been in both environments and both have some components of major, hardcore suckage."
But one particular piece of suckage that seems worse in industry than in academia (at least, in my experience) is that you're more likely to get stuck working under an a-hole while in industry than at a university. Not necessarily that there are more a-holes, but the chances of getting stuck are greater. Your ability to transfer, to restart, or to find a new mentor is much greater in the groves of academe. If you have an industry job reporting to a jerk, you might find there is no way out. And in industry, you have to do what you're told. In academia, people expect you to argue about it (to some extent).
Going to industry in order to feel less trapped and less regimented is a backwards move.
Posted by: David | March 14, 2010 4:18 PM
I have never worked in industry, but I have a number of friends who have recently made the jump.
Money is great.
Politics are still present (although perhaps not as nonsensical as in academia).
Job security is 0.
Posted by: Pascale | March 14, 2010 5:35 PM
Bella
The reason the grass looks greener in industry is because, like the chinese government, they have spray painted it green.
Pascale
Job security in academia is 0
Posted by: antipodean | March 14, 2010 8:32 PM
Bella
Nasty people are everywhere. Polite refusal to accept their nastiness can be difficult. Find a mentor who can help you learn to mentor difficult people.
All the best.
Gus
Posted by: Gus | March 14, 2010 11:06 PM
Hi Dr. Isis,
Thanks so much for getting to my email so fast (and LOL @ the pic.. I *hate* that Bella, but gotta love Edward :) )
Onto more seriousness.. I originally wanted to try my hand at industry as I was so bummed out from my academic experience, and I simply wanted to see what it was like on the other side... spend a few years there, gain some experience and star power, and then leave the door open in case I wanted to go back. But my PhD advisor had other plans and refused to write me recom letters... so I applied to postdocs, and figured I'd transition from there in a year or so.
But it is getting pretty unbearable here, which is why I just thought I'd cut my losses and make my transition now.
Hubby and I can't do the long distance thing, we'd already been doing it for 2.5 years while I was finishing up my PhD and then I joined him here. He's going to be under a lot of stress over the next few years (he's going up for *gulp* tenure!) and I can't abandon him and put him under another stressful long distance thing.. we just can NOT go back to that!
I am disappointed to learn that the best way is networking, since quite simply, my advisor never helped me *start* networking, and I have no idea how to go about it. All my friends/colleagues are scattered in huge urban areas far away from here so they can't really help (I've already tried, they have no people to introduce me to here) and I don't know how to go about it.
I am going to submit my resume to the few mega companies that have labs here, as well as the smaller ones and hopefully see how it goes. Thanks so much for paying attention to my problems Dr. Isis.. and for all your commenters suggestions!
Bella
Posted by: Bella, PhD | March 16, 2010 4:02 PM