Pharyngula

Posted by: Walton | February 4, 2010 7:28 PM

Wow, my previous post was the final one on the last subThread. I bet no one will actually respond to it now. :-(

Anyway, I have an essay to do by tomorrow morning and must stop procrastinating.

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak, Lao Daung Duen | February 4, 2010 7:30 PM

Don't ask too much of me.

Why not? To tired? Lazy? Going to Scarborough Fair? Painting the moon black? Stopping in the name of love, before you break my heart? Killing in the name of? A spider sat beside you while you ate curds and weigh? huh? Why, PZ?

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | February 4, 2010 7:34 PM

I know the feeling PZ. Spent all day in a meeting with some new clients (overseers) for an old project. I feel like you did on your jet lag day...

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 4, 2010 7:41 PM

what if American society were to take on the old Indonesian custom of having no surname if you're not upper class?

OH AMERICAN SOCIETY NO

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 4, 2010 7:43 PM

As far as Greg Laden is concerned, this is what first happened to take my eye when I peeked at the thread in question, never having followed his blog. Excuse the longish quote:

I want to make a couple of comments on UK antisemitism as I understand it. This will be an oversimplification, and it will be based on having worked very closely with Israelis in a British context and an American Jew (with whom I worked on race issues) who had been working in a British context until he could not take it any longer.

New Atheism is not likely to be at the root of the added antisemitism we may see from the UK. It may be a factor and there may be individual personality issues at play, but it must be overshadowed by much bigger issues.

The English/British (we can start a flame war later on what the correct term is) have a prior colonial history with "Semites" some of whom happen to be Jewish. There is a relationship there that has not really been resolved that involves old fashioned English racism and resentment thereof.

In that context, both English and US interests (including all sorts of institutional entities) went along with the whole Central European anti Jewish thing that was manifest eventually as the holocaust with many helping hands. From a European Jewish perspective, if the Germans were not at war with the Brits, the Brits would have been directly involved in the holocaust. The Americans too but more indirectly. That may be an exaggeration, but not much of one.

So there is a bit of tension left over from that second factor.

Then, the British totally screwed the Jews in Palestine, from the Jewish Perspective. One can argue all one wants as to what could have or should have happened, or should now happen, to the way land is divided up in the Levant, but history could have actually led to a state of Israel much like what ended up occurring without several additional bad things happening to the Jews there because of specific and blatantly anti-Jewish British decisions. Just like many Jews have relatives who died in the holocaust, some Jews have relatives who died because of the British at that time. This is not a small matter.

And of course, a perfectly appropriate British response to being guilty of oppression is to get all huffy and arrogant about it.

Then, subsequently, yes, there have been the recent politics that have been mentioned in relation to Israel, but that is not so much something new as just more of the same.

The British "left" is not anti-Semitic because it is atheist. The British "left" is anti-Semitic because it is British, and there is a shiny new coin or two in the anti-Semitic purse in the form of anti-Israel (as the bad guy government) sentiment.

But beyond that, this is worth noting: Middle class educated WASP American society is plenty anti-semetic. But from what I understand, British middle class educated society is much more blatantly anti-semetic. The British PC standard line on Jews is fundamentally different from the American. I suspect this has a lot to do with the closer continental ties in Britain, immigration history differences, and a difference in the way intellectual resources were divvied up after WWII and in relation to the cold war. During the cold war, for every South Asian mathematician or physicist moved to England from the colonies to do brilliant work, there are five Jewish German "Rocket Scientists" in the US. And I pulled those numbers out of my ass, but as I sit here thinking about it it seems about right.

This has so many interpenetrating layers of stupidity and ignorance in it that it would take a long time to dissect them all out. The following is by no means a complete analysis.
Paragraph 1: OK, he's basing his view of antisemitism in the UK on what a handful of non-British people he's worked with have told him.
Paragraph 3:
"The English/British (we can start a flame war later on what the correct term is) have a prior colonial history with "Semites" some of whom happen to be Jewish."
It should of course be "British": Scots, Welsh and even Irish were deeply involved in British imperialism. I did him the courtesy of assuming that the scare-quotes around "Semites" indicated that he knew this was not a term that could be applied to any modern population except by a racist. Quite possibly I was too generous.
Paragraph 4:
"From a European Jewish perspective, if the Germans were not at war with the Brits, the Brits would have been directly involved in the holocaust."
WTF? I have never heard any European Jew say or hint at anything so ridiculous (and I have worked and socialised with many, and for 10 years, was the partner of the daughter of a German and an Austrian Jew who fled the Nazis just in time and lost many family members in the Shoah). I dare say the likes of Henry Gee may say such things, but I have been fortunate enough not to encounter them. Of course antisemitism was very widespread in pre-WWII Britain, as in all of Europe, the USA, and other European settler countries, but it had not for centuries had the venomous intensity it had in much of eastern Europe, let alone the systematic planning and execution of mass-murder it attained in Nazism. The holocaust, of course, did not begin until after WWII started.

Paragraph 6: this is all about why Jews (in Laden's view) are anti-British, not why the British (as Laden claims) are particularly antisemitic. It is true some Jews died because the British restricted Jewish immigration to both Britain and Palestine; it is also true that some died because the USA imposed quotas on Jewish immigration, so this can't explain the supposed particular animus Jews feel against Britain, let alone the supposed unusual degree of antisemitism in Britain. I am absolutely no defender of British imperialism: in WWI, one of the central British war aims was to extend imperial control over as much of the near East as possible, and subsequent British policy left both Jews and Palestinian Arabs feeling justifiably betrayed; but this has little or no connection to current British attitudes to either Jews or Arabs, or to the Israel/Palestine question. Suez, where Britain conspired with France and Israel to attack Egypt, and the USA rightly intervened to halt their aggression is more recent - but where do these events fit into Laden's weirdly distorted picture?

Paragraph 7:
"And of course, a perfectly appropriate British response to being guilty of oppression is to get all huffy and arrogant about it."
So if any Brit disagrees with Laden, that just proves how right he is.

Paragraph 8:
"just more of the same". More of what same, FFS?

Paragraph 9:
"The British "left" is anti-Semitic because it is British"
Note: not "parts of the British left"; and as shown, almost all of Laden's diatribe is about why Jews (in his view) hate the British, not vice versa. I'm not sure what the scare-quotes around "left" are about.
Later, in a response to me which he pretended was not defending his view, Laden substituted:
"British Liberals are sometimes antisemitic because they are part of a society where antisemitism is relatively common."
That, specifically, is why I call him a liar as well as a fuckwit: the distance between the original claim and the pretended restatement of that claim is vast. It also demonstrates that Laden is completely ignorant about British politics, in that he equates "left" and "liberal", which is simply nonsense in British terms: British "liberals", whether with a large or a small "l", constitute the soggy centre.

Paragraph 10:
"But from what I understand, British middle class educated society is much more blatantly anti-semetic."
IOW, he's never actually mixed in that society, but a few non-British people he's worked with have told him so. Blatant antisemitism is probably as taboo in "British middle class educated society" as in its American equivalent, if only because a significant proportion of those belonging to it are Jews, or married to Jews, or close friends of Jews, etc., and the antisemite doesn't know who will object. That doesn't mean there isn't a lot of covert antisemitism, but FFS even our fascists have to pretend they're not antisemitic in order to present a "respectable" face. Blatant antisemitism in Britain is the preserve of a few beyond-the-loony-fringe swastika-wearers, and a considerably larger number of Islamist extremists. The "respectable" form of race hatred is now Islamophobia.

Paragraph 11:
"a difference in the way intellectual resources were divvied up after WWII and in relation to the cold war. During the cold war, for every South Asian mathematician or physicist moved to England from the colonies to do brilliant work, there are five Jewish German "Rocket Scientists" in the US."

The man's a complete ignoramus. Many more European Jewish than south Asian scientists and mathematicians live and work in Britain, and that was the case throughout the 20th century.

The whole screed is a fine example of the Dunning-Kruger effect: Laden knows fuck-all about Britain, but his certainty in his ludicrous conclusions matches his ignorance. I've gone on longer than I intended - but that kind of cocksure ignorance and irrationality is why I have no interest whatever in having Laden as an "ally", or indeed having anything to do with him at all.

Posted by: AJ Milne | February 4, 2010 7:44 PM

OH AMERICAN SOCIETY NO...

Ahem. I believe you missed the tag on your link:

(/^NSFA.)

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 4, 2010 7:46 PM

lot's? really?

oops.

Posted by: Miki Z | February 4, 2010 7:56 PM

lot's? really?

Sure, like "lot's looking to adopt some haitian kids after CPS took his".

Very happy those Americans got arrested. The more that comes out the worse they look, as they have now dropped all pretense that they were trying to help orphans:

Laura Silsby, the group's spokeswoman, told the hearing: "We simply wanted to help the children. We petition the court not only for our freedom but also for our ability to continue to help."

She said her group was taking the children to a 45-room hotel it was converting to an orphanage in Cabarete in the Dominican Republic.

"We were going to house them there," she said of the beach resort. "They could stay there, go to school and live well and the parents could come and visit them." (source)

Posted by: AJ Milne | February 4, 2010 7:59 PM

If I did get married I'd almost beg my wife not to take my common, excruciatingly dull surname. Heck, maybe I'd only get married if it meant I'd have a reasonable reason to ditch mine and take hers...

Heh. I can see the singles ad now: 'SM seeks SF with non-boring surname...'

I've nothing against my surname, and no real determined views either way on the subject of passing 'em around at marriage, but for reasons sorta related to this, my wife didn't take mine. She probably wouldn't have anyway, but regardless, we both agreed well ahead that for aesthetic reasons it would have just been a bad idea. Her name is very Arabic, mine's very not. It woulda just sounded downright jarring even hyphenating what she uses for a surname, and mixing her given with mine, again.

(/On the other hand, I guess it could also have come off sorta like sorta strange Sugarcubes lyrics thing--y'know, like either Bjork or Einar had just snuck into the studio after mastering and laid their stuff in on top without the other even knowing... Which mighta been cool, if we'd got a hit out of it, anyway.)

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 4, 2010 8:09 PM

I'm glad I missed Laden's post where he showed his ignorance about both Jews and Britons. I've deleted his blog from my bookmarks.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 4, 2010 8:12 PM

In reference to the name-change stuff, of course I've no objection to anyone changing their name, for any reason. What I was questioning, as someone suggested, (sorry, not going back to the old thread to check who), was Alan B.'s expressed preference for women taking their husband's surname on marriage. Why is it any concern of his? Does he just frown inwardly when a female acquaintance refuses to do the decent thing, or does he deliberately address her as Mrs. Husbandsname?

On a personal level, I don't much like my surname, and certainly didn't want to inflict it on anyone else; but it would have been inconvenient professionally for either of us to take the other's name. Our son uses my wife's surname, but I suspect that if someone wanted to find his birth certificate, they would need mine - I registered as his father after his birth, and I think they automatically file the birth under the father's name if that is done. My younger brother's wife and children use his name - but hers was very readily mockable; my elder brother and his wife have each kept their own, and one son has taken each, according to their own preferences. My sister briefly changed her name to her partner's without marrying, but then changed back, before splitting up with him.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 4, 2010 8:16 PM

If PZ is going to give us beer commercials then how about one of the most famous:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLn_L_pSUjI

Posted by: Kel, OM | February 4, 2010 8:30 PM

My mother actually retained my father's last name after the divorce.

So did mine. Though that may be partly because they changed their last name together anyway.

My wife chose to take my name, I told her I didn't care if she did or didn't. I didn't want to change mine, not out of a sense of entitlement but because I like my name.

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | February 4, 2010 8:40 PM

SC -

I just wanted to tell you I've followed your battle on Greg Laden's blog, and I've been silently rooting for you (sorry I didn't jump in, maybe next time). Henry Gee's behavior here at Pharyngula was indeed morally reprehensible, and any clear-thinking person ought to have reconsidered his/her take on Gee's recent antics after you brought this up. The bullshit Stephanie Z and, sadly, Laden, flung at you was mind-boggling. I was having a hard time believing they were native readers of English, saying the things they did.

Posted by: qbsmd | February 4, 2010 8:54 PM

qbsmd, I did respond briefly and (I admit) angrily on Laden's blog, whereupon he promptly complained that my tone was obnoxious, and implicitly threatened to ban me. I'm not interested in an argument where he can say whatever he pleases, and I can be banned or censored any time he chooses. I posted here in response to Paul W., not Laden himself.

I was all ready to give him the benefit of the doubt and suggest the tone comment was a joke related to the scio10 civility discussion, but I can't find the post at all. Did he remove it?

Posted by: otrame | February 4, 2010 9:05 PM

re #9

I had a Jewish friend years ago who hated people who played the anti-semitism card at the drop of a hat. He said it belittled the real horror of real anti-semitism.

I know that it's still out there in general US and UK culture. My mentor, a very smart, very sweet woman whom I adored once shocked me down to my toes because she used the expression, "They sure jewed him out of that", and when I objected, she was surprised and said, "Oh, it's just a saying." And there is probably some truth to that. She was a kid in New England just before and during WWII and the anti-semitism was rampant, so it was a saying she must have heard many times. But it still disturbed me a great deal that she would say such a thing, and it disturbed her a great deal that I was disturbed (she wasn't angry, she was just nonplussed: it just didn't seem like such a big deal).

So, yeah, there was and is anti-semitism in British and the US, though in both places it is kept fairly quiet. But damn it, you are not an anti-semite just because you don't approve of some of Israel's policies. You are not an anti-semite if you think that Dr. Gee has lost the plot. Disagreeing with a Jew about something does not make you an anti-semite.

Given the Holocaust, I understand why Jews are more sensitive to any hint of anti-semitism, as opposed any other form of racism, and it is undoubtedly the responsibility of everyone to make sure that it stays socially unacceptable long enough to die out completely.

And yes, it will eventually. In the last decades of the 19th century and the first decades of the 20th one was chillingly polite to one's neighbors if they were Methodists and you were Baptist. One certainly didn't socialize with them. And if they were Catholic, you weren't even polite. That is no longer true. Things do get better. (Okay, I'm a soppy old optimist. So sue me.)

Posted by: SC OM | February 4, 2010 9:10 PM

'Night, Kg!

***

qbsmd,

http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2010/01/should_just_anyone_be_allowed_1.php#comment-2248333

***

SC -

I just wanted to tell you I've followed your battle on Greg Laden's blog, and I've been silently rooting for you (sorry I didn't jump in, maybe next time). Henry Gee's behavior here at Pharyngula was indeed morally reprehensible, and any clear-thinking person ought to have reconsidered his/her take on Gee's recent antics after you brought this up. The bullshit Stephanie Z and, sadly, Laden, flung at you was mind-boggling. I was having a hard time believing they were native readers of English, saying the things they did.

Just wanted to quote this. :) Thanks, Josh.

Posted by: bbgunn071679 | February 4, 2010 9:18 PM

Dr. Myers -

Have you at least tried a decent Irish whiskey while on the Green Isle? Neat, of course, but if you must, no more than one ice cube.

I couldn't afford the Midleton's when I was there in '03, but the Red Breast was very tasty. As was Bushmill's Black.

The beer is good, but the whiskey is sublime.

Posted by: Feynmaniac | February 4, 2010 9:27 PM

people who played the anti-semitism card at the drop of a hat.

Uncle Leo?

Posted by: Peter McKellar | February 4, 2010 9:34 PM

I'm so pressed for time I must do a drive-by comment.

This pharynulite frequently fears for PZ health and is soooo pleased he is "relaxing". I also offer to help him relax when at the Melbourne conference. Callously refused a ticket when I finally managed to raise the cash (sold out). I guess I will have to just spend it all loitering at local pubs.

I will be there, even if I can't attend sessions. Can't wait to meet up with Kel, Bride et al.

fwiw, I'm in Bangalore India working 12hr days for the next 3 weeks. I'll try to get back to this thread if I get a spare moment tonight.

Posted by: Kel, OM | February 4, 2010 9:39 PM

I had a Jewish friend years ago who hated people who played the anti-semitism card at the drop of a hat.

What I object to out of all this is that it is somehow justified even if false because of just how bad it was. Whether the fear is real is irrelevant, it's being used to tarnish the opposition. It would be like bringing up 9/11 as a counter argument to, well, anything. It's arguing a non-sequitur, one that's a slippery slope and poisoning the well.

There should be no justification for those who make such arguments. They've said something horrible and wrong, and even if it was out of a genuine fear it is still horrible and wrong.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 4, 2010 9:45 PM

Some years ago I chewed out a Jew for gross stupidity and was accused of anti-semitism. I confused the man by saying: "That's the most messhuggeneh thing I've heard in a long time."

Posted by: llewelly | February 4, 2010 9:47 PM

Walton | February 4, 2010 7:25 PM:

But if I ever were to get married to a woman, I personally really wouldn't want her to adopt my surname. To me, it perpetuates the worst and most patriarchal aspects of "traditional" marriage; it's a legacy from the days when a wife was essentially her husband's property. It has no legitimate place in a gender-equal society.

I agree entirely. Moreover - it is worth noting that in a few professions, such law, politics, and science, a woman is known largely by her last name. Changing her name part way through her career can mean her peers are less likely to be aware of work she did before marriage.

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | February 4, 2010 9:51 PM

On a lighter note, aren't you the first of the Ilk to be banned over there? SC, OM, Banned - looks pretty sweet.

Sadly, Ingunt Slut o'Ours, Laden is claiming SC isn't really banned; she just decided to take a breather. We'll have to campaign vigorously for a proper bannination.

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM | February 4, 2010 9:53 PM

Walton - Would you feel the same about the name change if you married a man?

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | February 4, 2010 9:55 PM

He apparently thinks that everyone believes he was just joking when he told SC to go away until she can be rational (or whatever his rationale was).

Good point. Given his coy, opaque writing style (not to mention sloppy spelling, etc.) it's impossible to know.

Posted by: WowbaggerOM | February 4, 2010 10:00 PM

He apparently thinks that everyone believes he was just joking when he told SC to go away until she can be rational (or whatever his rationale was).

Great, what's he going to do next - ask her to buy him a camera to make up for it and then claim that was just a joke we should have realised was such?

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 4, 2010 10:03 PM

To quote one of Alan B's favo(u)rite diarists: "And so to bed."

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM | February 4, 2010 10:03 PM

Why the sniveling bollocks-less weenie! He should ban her or be damned. Sounds like a typical christian coward.

Ignunt...Chardonnay...dammit, I'm drinking Sangria mixed with Blood Oranges & Limes, must be missing something. On the other hand the smell of portobellos, shallots and bacon frying in butter is distracting...

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | February 4, 2010 10:06 PM

On the other hand the smell of portobellos, shallots and bacon frying in butter is distracting...

You bewitcher. You bedeviler. You wicked, culinary seductress. Your siren smell vexes me. . . .

It's left-over pot roast for me. Sigh.

Posted by: Ichthyic | February 4, 2010 10:09 PM

It would be like bringing up 9/11 as a counter argument to, well, anything. It's arguing a non-sequitur, one that's a slippery slope and poisoning the well.

http://www.idkwtf.com/videos/latest-videos/family-guy-lois-speech-on-9-11

9.

11.

:P

Posted by: otrame | February 4, 2010 10:09 PM

But I don't accuse my straight/bi/trans allies of being latent fag-bashers the minute they don't agree with me, or if they don't pay my Personal Oppression proper obeisance.

Maybe that's because you have actually suffered from the oppression yourself?

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | February 4, 2010 10:14 PM

Maybe that's because you have actually suffered from the oppression yourself?

I'd rather think it's because I understand the difference between people who mean me and others harm, and people who don't. Henry Gee doesn't seem to have figured that out. Or, if he has, he's willing to overlook it so he can make the most galling insults against people of good will. Either way, it's time for him to be a Big Kid Now.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | February 4, 2010 10:15 PM

Here's the thread that put me off Greg Laden. Feel free to tl;dr:

Video of our nearest living relatives having sex

Posted on: March 21, 2009 11:08 PM, by Greg Laden

Below the fold, of course.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N_V6FdB3qQ&feature;=player_embedded
Comments
1

I feel violated.

Posted by: foolfodder | March 22, 2009 4:56 AM
2

I was afraid it was going to be my parents..

Posted by: James Brennan | March 22, 2009 10:35 AM
3

I missed the sex part. All I saw was a stinkhorn expanding. (not growing) Mushroom 'sex', if that is what it is, occurs in the mycelial stage. A mushroom is only a fruiting body, analogous to an apple.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | March 23, 2009 11:05 PM
4

The fungal pedants have arrived to ruin it for everyone.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 23, 2009 11:09 PM
5

Isn't this stolen from "Planet Earth?"

Posted by: Alastair Frothergill | March 24, 2009 3:13 PM
6

Not stolen ... just click back to YouTube and get the credits ... but yes, it is from Planet Earth.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 24, 2009 3:14 PM
7

LOL, I didn't realize I had such power.

For a scientist, you seem adverse to information.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD, Fungal Pedant | March 25, 2009 6:40 AM
8

For a commenter visiting someone's blog you seem like kind of an asshole. Are you really a Friend of Charles Darwin Troll????

Explain yourself.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 25, 2009 9:04 AM
9

Woaaaah apply the brakes, and check the rear and side-view mirrors. When people start bickering like this on most YouTube comments ("jessica alba is not hot you f*****g f*g you must be a f*g" "no you cuz you think carmen electra is hoter go back to you boyfriend sh*t", etc etc) I chalked it up to lay people being, well, dumb.

Clearly scientists can't resist a good anonymous round of rhetorical bickering, either.

Oh, and I had the same problem with the video as you, Blind Sqirrel (though I still liked watching it). ;)

Posted by: VInce Noir | March 25, 2009 2:58 PM
10

My original comment was a simple, nonthreatening statement that there was no sex in the video. This has been seconded by a subsequent commenter. I am unable to comprehend the rancor of your replies.

The fungal pedants have arrived to ruin it for everyone.

That statement is grandiose. I do not have that power. You can not speak for everyone. That explains this comment

LOL, I didn't realize I had such power.

Now

For a scientist, you seem adverse to information.

This is low grade sarcasm.(I think you caught that)

For a commenter visiting someone's blog you seem like kind of an asshole. Are you really a Friend of Charles Darwin Troll????

That sort of remark is entirely uncalled for and cannot help but to reflect on the person making it.

I don't see how your attitude contributes to an environment where people feel free to contribute information freely to the enrichment of all. This is your goal isn't it?

Oh,and I enjoyed the video.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD, Fungal Pedant | March 25, 2009 3:46 PM
11

I think we have to ask the fungi that they think. Why do you insist, blind squirrel, that your heteronormative metazoan standards be applied to all organisms?

uncalled for and cannot help but to reflect on the person making it.

Right out of the Dictionary for Trolls.

No matter what, it is a great video.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 25, 2009 3:51 PM
12

I think we have to ask the fungi that they think. Why do you insist, blind squirrel, that your heteronormative metazoan standards be applied to all organisms?

Meaningless word salad. Now you are just laying smoke.

Right out of the Dictionary for Trolls.

It may be in the dictionary, but it is still accurate.

No matter what, it is a great video.

Greg, I like the video. All the posters here like the video. Gosh, we all think that it is the bestest video that was ever made.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD, Fungal Pedant | March 25, 2009 4:41 PM
13

It really is a good video.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 25, 2009 7:55 PM
14

Admit it Greg, you only posted that so I would drop by and say hi.

Hi

Blind squirrel: I think you are conflating meiosis with sex. While meiosis, more specifically meiotic recombination may be the a hallmark of sex it is not in and of itself sex. The sperm I am currently making have undergone recombination, but alas I aint getting any. I am also aware of post-menopausal women who have significant amounts of sex, or does that not count?

Posted by: Lorax | March 26, 2009 4:08 PM
15

Blind squirrel: I think you are conflating meiosis with sex.

No I'm not. How did you miss the scare quotes and the conditional clause? Here, I'll show you:

Mushroom 'sex', if that is what it is

Did you see any sex of any sort in the video? That was the point of my innocuous comment.

What did you think of Greg's reaction to my comment?

BTW, I'm not getting any either.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD, Fungal Pedant | March 26, 2009 10:30 PM
16

Blind:

Hold on one second there, friend...

Just so you know what you are arguing about (and you are the only one arguing): You said "For a scientist, you seem adverse to information." and I see that as trollish sentimentality. Concern troll, I believe, though I may have the taxonomy wrong. Thus, the slap up side the head. The pedant comment was simple healthy fungal humor.

OK, you may continue now.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 26, 2009 10:39 PM
17

If that was an attempt at humor, It missed me. I think it was the part about ruining it for everyone. It didn't sound very funny at the time, and it still doesn't. It sounds like someone ridiculing a person for being intelligent because they have been called on a mistake.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD, Fungal Pedant | March 27, 2009 12:29 AM
18

No, it was definitely funny.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 27, 2009 12:41 AM
19

Greg Laden = Fun Guy.

there. had to be said.

Posted by: DDeden | March 27, 2009 6:23 PM

Notice how he becomes more incoherent as the evening progresses. Now I'm not saying he has a drinking problem and I don't believe he has a drinking problem, but you can see from this pattern how someone might interpret this as a drinking problem.

BS

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | February 4, 2010 10:20 PM

Blind Squirrel, that is a little tl;dr. I'm sure it's worthy, but maybe condense it a 'lil?

Love, SpokesGay

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | February 4, 2010 10:22 PM

@Gyeong:

I can't get that song out of my head.

What song, my little pocket monster?

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | February 4, 2010 10:28 PM

It's left-over pot roast for me.

We had planned-over "ground hog" tonight. The Redhead, who tries to celebrate as many holidays as possible, makes a sausage/hamburger meatloaf shaped like a certain prophetic underground mammal for groundhog day. Throw some potatoes and squash in the oven at the same time...

Posted by: SC OM | February 4, 2010 10:30 PM

Maybe that's because you have actually suffered from the oppression yourself?

Where in the world do you think that's possible?

***

Greg, I like the video. All the posters here like the video. Gosh, we all think that it is the bestest video that was ever made.

:)

Posted by: SC OM | February 4, 2010 10:35 PM

Where in the world do you think that's possible?

Er, sorry! I read "haven't" where you wrote "have."

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | February 4, 2010 10:36 PM

@Gyeong:

Why, this song

Oh la noi. . . duang duen uey.

Oh, that's very pretty. It sounds like a blend of Western and Eastern musical styles. Do you have any more information? I'd be interested in knowing what tonal scale they're using, and what style this represents.

Posted by: mastashredda.kj | February 4, 2010 10:40 PM

Mmmm Beer

Posted by: Josh, Official SpokesGay | February 4, 2010 10:49 PM

Cool, thanks, Gyeong.

And now, off to bed for SpokesGay, too.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | February 4, 2010 11:06 PM

Ok cleaned up a bit. GL's comments in bold; feel free to skip this. It's only slightly OT.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4N_V6FdB3qQ&feature;=player_embedded

Video of our nearest living relatives having sex

Posted on: March 21, 2009 11:08 PM, by Greg Laden

Comments
1

I missed the sex part. All I saw was a stinkhorn expanding. (not growing) Mushroom 'sex', if that is what it is, occurs in the mycelial stage. A mushroom is only a fruiting body, analogous to an apple.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | March 23, 2009 11:05 PM
4

The fungal pedants have arrived to ruin it for everyone.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 23, 2009 11:09 PM

LOL, I didn't realize I had such power.

For a scientist, you seem adverse to information.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD, Fungal Pedant | March 25, 2009 6:40 AM
8

For a commenter visiting someone's blog you seem like kind of an asshole. Are you really a Friend of Charles Darwin Troll????

Explain yourself.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 25, 2009 9:04 AM
9

Woaaaah apply the brakes, and check the rear and side-view mirrors. When people start bickering like this on most YouTube comments ("jessica alba is not hot you f*****g f*g you must be a f*g" "no you cuz you think carmen electra is hoter go back to you boyfriend sh*t", etc etc) I chalked it up to lay people being, well, dumb.

Clearly scientists can't resist a good anonymous round of rhetorical bickering, either.

Oh, and I had the same problem with the video as you, Blind Sqirrel (though I still liked watching it). ;)

Posted by: VInce Noir | March 25, 2009 2:58 PM
10

My original comment was a simple, nonthreatening statement that there was no sex in the video. This has been seconded by a subsequent commenter. I am unable to comprehend the rancor of your replies.

The fungal pedants have arrived to ruin it for everyone.

That statement is grandiose. I do not have that power. You can not speak for everyone. That explains this comment

LOL, I didn't realize I had such power.

Now

For a scientist, you seem adverse to information.

This is low grade sarcasm.(I think you caught that)

For a commenter visiting someone's blog you seem like kind of an asshole. Are you really a Friend of Charles Darwin Troll????

That sort of remark is entirely uncalled for and cannot help but to reflect on the person making it.

I don't see how your attitude contributes to an environment where people feel free to contribute information freely to the enrichment of all. This is your goal isn't it?

Oh,and I enjoyed the video.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD, Fungal Pedant | March 25, 2009 3:46 PM
11

I think we have to ask the fungi that they think. Why do you insist, blind squirrel, that your heteronormative metazoan standards be applied to all organisms?

uncalled for and cannot help but to reflect on the person making it.

Right out of the Dictionary for Trolls.

No matter what, it is a great video.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 25, 2009 3:51 PM
12

I think we have to ask the fungi that they think. Why do you insist, blind squirrel, that your heteronormative metazoan standards be applied to all organisms?

Meaningless word salad. Now you are just laying smoke.

Right out of the Dictionary for Trolls.

It may be in the dictionary, but it is still accurate.

No matter what, it is a great video.

Greg, I like the video. All the posters here like the video. Gosh, we all think that it is the bestest video that was ever made.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD, Fungal Pedant | March 25, 2009 4:41 PM
13

It really is a good video.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 25, 2009 7:55 PM

Blind squirrel: I think you are conflating meiosis with sex. While meiosis, more specifically meiotic recombination may be the a hallmark of sex it is not in and of itself sex. The sperm I am currently making have undergone recombination, but alas I aint getting any. I am also aware of post-menopausal women who have significant amounts of sex, or does that not count?

Posted by: Lorax | March 26, 2009 4:08 PM
15

Blind squirrel: I think you are conflating meiosis with sex.

No I'm not. How did you miss the scare quotes and the conditional clause? Here, I'll show you:

Mushroom 'sex', if that is what it is

Did you see any sex of any sort in the video? That was the point of my innocuous comment.

What did you think of Greg's reaction to my comment?

BTW, I'm not getting any either.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD, Fungal Pedant | March 26, 2009 10:30 PM
16

Blind:

Hold on one second there, friend...

Just so you know what you are arguing about (and you are the only one arguing): You said "For a scientist, you seem adverse to information." and I see that as trollish sentimentality. Concern troll, I believe, though I may have the taxonomy wrong. Thus, the slap up side the head. The pedant comment was simple healthy fungal humor.

OK, you may continue now.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 26, 2009 10:39 PM
17

If that was an attempt at humor, It missed me. I think it was the part about ruining it for everyone. It didn't sound very funny at the time, and it still doesn't. It sounds like someone ridiculing a person for being intelligent because they have been called on a mistake.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD, Fungal Pedant | March 27, 2009 12:29 AM
18

No, it was definitely funny.

Posted by: Greg Laden | March 27, 2009 12:41 AM
19

Notice how he becomes more incoherent as the evening progresses. Now I'm not saying he has a drinking problem and I don't believe he has a drinking problem, but you can see from this pattern how someone might interpret this as a drinking problem.

BS

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 4, 2010 11:16 PM

how... weird. as far as I can tell, GL tried to turn that into a conversation of "what is sex, anyway?", but in such an oblique and insulting way (calling you a troll? claiming that your "insistence" on sex having something to do with reproduction, or at least reproductive organs, is kinda like what the anti-gay and anti-contraception fundies do when they whine that sex is supposed to be for babymaking only? wtf?), that it completely ruins any potential the conversation might have had. and it has nothing to do with mushrooms, either.

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM | February 4, 2010 11:31 PM

Blind Squirrel - Dammit, now I'm going to have to look those up in my Audubon Field Guide. I only know the hillbilly or vulgar names.

We also have those sillysybin ;) little mushrooms that grow on cow poo. Good ol' Oregon just full of fungus.

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM | February 5, 2010 12:04 AM

BS - One of my brothers is heavily steeped in forest and field fungi, the other one is into greenery. My kin folks that live in Tillamook work at dairies and on crab boats, I damn near got the state covered. A comma here or there wouldn't keep you from some nice specimens.

Posted by: The 386sx Society | February 5, 2010 12:10 AM

preceded = proceeded

Posted by: The 386sx Society | February 5, 2010 12:27 AM

Alan B, I do find it funny that Jesus skated around the answer in order to trip up the dude who was looking for loopholes. And lo and behold, I was looking for loopholes and it tripped me up too! Just thought that was funny. The irony is not lost on me.

Giving credit where credit is due,
386

Cheers.

Posted by: The 386sx Society | February 5, 2010 12:35 AM

Patricia, OM, Jezus wouldn't have mixed with us in a hot minute.

Yeah I have to wonder about that one too. Jesus did have some choice words for the "scribes and Pharisees", as I recall. That and he did a lot of damning of people who didn't pay attention to his "message".

Posted by: Miki Z | February 5, 2010 12:46 AM

Actually, I can't, and I don't think anyone should post something like that about someone they don't know.That's poisoning the well right there.There is much to not like and criticise about GL's blog, but comments like that are inappropriate IMO.

That's the point, I think -- GL used that phrasing, except with 'drinking' replaced by 'anti-semite' to 'not' call SC an anti-semite.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | February 5, 2010 12:58 AM

That's the point, I think -- GL used that phrasing, except with 'drinking' replaced by 'anti-semite' to 'not' call SC an anti-semite.

Yes, that was a rif on GJ's comment.

BS

Posted by: Rorschach | February 5, 2010 1:04 AM

Yes, that was a rif on GJ's comment.

I don't see it, but maybe that's just me....
Better get some Beck's then huh.
;)

Posted by: boygenius | February 5, 2010 1:20 AM

Ben in Texas said:

Forgive me if someone has mentioned this on another thread, but that woman (Laura Silsby) who headed that group of arrested missionaries in Haiti has quite a checkered past in Idaho, at least according to this web report:

http://www.idahostatesman.com/273/story/1067267.html

Thank you,Ben. I hadn't heard any of these other allegations/charges even though I live in Boise. I tend to be fairly hyperopic and don't closely follow local news media outlets, mostly because they are full of ideological crap. Ms. Silsby doesn't seem quite the saint her church presents her to be.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 5, 2010 1:31 AM

I don't see it, but maybe that's just me.... Better get some Beck's then huh.

point being, GL used precisely that wording to accuse SC of being anti-semitic, while denying he was doing so. this is just turning the tables on him in his own words.

Posted by: Rorschach | February 5, 2010 1:55 AM

Well, to something completely different, Aussies have high work standards and take their job extremely seriously, even a live broadcast will not distract them from their task :

And now to finance news.....

;)

But there is hope for the gentleman :

Banker gains web support

Posted by: FossilFishy | February 5, 2010 2:01 AM

Guinness: It's like God pissing on my tongue!

Er....it's like what God's piss would taste like if God existed. Er...that is if God existed and, you know, excreted...and would let me, someone who doesn't believe in him, drink it...er, seems unlikely on the face of it...er...so...

Guiness: Yum!

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 5, 2010 2:11 AM

Heddle has never been banned here.
IMO there is a world of difference between the odious Piltdown Clown and Heddle. Heddle has some strange ideas, but he's smart, sometimes funny, and he does not proselytize, not here anyway. He'll argue all day long (and pretty well) about some stuff, but he's always lightyears more interesting than Piltdown ever was.

I hope you are not suggesting that either of then deserve the banhammer solely for their religious beliefs. That is not how it works.

Posted by: Rorschach | February 5, 2010 2:29 AM

I'd like to see that pissant 'professor' dendy sent there if he keeps coming back.

Well and truly enough material for a new round (or 2) of Survivor methinks, if the CO ever gets around to it, what with his busy travel schedule and all...:-)

By the way Aussies, around this time in 5 weeks from now we should be sitting in the Young&Jackson; pleasantly inebriated with an exciting convention about to start, including the CO!! (or so I hear from the organising committee)

Posted by: Rorschach | February 5, 2010 2:34 AM

busy boning up on Canada's History.

If that's a pun, you know I suck at them ! If no, I don't get it....

And I dont do boning up anymore, only gets you into trouble..:-(

Posted by: SC OM | February 5, 2010 2:43 AM

If no, I don't get it....

Oh, sure, you don't. You're the resident expert.

Posted by: Rorschach | February 5, 2010 2:55 AM

(the specific insanity of the Adelaide Fringe festival

There was a report about that on the ABC the other day, I should really try and come over for a weekend or so !

I like this one :

The Rap Guide to Evolution

Posted by: WowbaggerOM | February 5, 2010 3:02 AM

I like this one: The Rap Guide to Evolution

Yep, it's on the list of hopefuls. Whether I get to it or not is another thing.

Posted by: Mr T | February 5, 2010 3:08 AM

Sven, #113:
Sorry, I am corrected. I thought Heddle was banned a few months ago. I remember a thread where PZ told him not to comment anymore and hadn't noticed him since.

I was not suggesting we ban people solely for their religious beliefs.

Anyway, if he were, it would've been well-deserved if you ask me. Yes, Pilty is much worse, and he's not even remotely interesting. (I should say that I also don't think we should ban people based solely on how interesting they are.) Yes, Heddle can be intelligent and have a sense of humor. He's also written some stupid, twisted, evil shit that I don't take very lightly.

Personally, I don't care a whole lot if he or anyone else is banned. There will always be other trolls to stomp or ignore; and if I really felt it necessary, I could use a killfile.

Posted by: WowbaggerOM | February 5, 2010 3:25 AM

Though that place has Coopers Pale Ale on tap so when I'm there I just drink that.

I remain a loyal Queenslander for a few things; beer, however, is not one of them - XXXX is possibly the vilest abomination ever brewed and passed off as beer. Cooper's Pale is my choice for tap beer - though I prefer James Boag's when I'm drinking the bottled stuff.

Posted by: Rorschach | February 5, 2010 3:35 AM

XXXX is possibly the vilest abomination ever brewed and passed off as beer.

See this is just weird.
My clearly superior european beer palate does not mind XXXX at all, when I lived in Brisbane I used to drink nothing else, Boags gives me indigestion and gas, and the usual aussie beers give me headaches in the quantities I drink...:-) Cooper's pale ale I really have to try one day soon though.

Posted by: Miki Z | February 5, 2010 3:44 AM

For me, the chance of that happening is zero. I got a first and middle Spanish names, and two Japanese last names.

Interesting. I know there are a lot of Brazilians with a Japanese heritage so that there is a significant population of Portguese/Japanese names, but I don't remember hearing of a Spanish/Japanese one before.

Posted by: FossilFishy | February 5, 2010 3:51 AM

Don't like Boags or XXXX. I'm in the Alpine Shire of Victoria and The Bridge Road Brewery of Beechworth makes a really fine brew (Celtic Red) that's available on tap in my local.

Mind you, I like VB so what do I know? Though, in my defense I'm a Canadian ex-pat and the stuff tastes different enough from all my usual Canadian quaffs to be interesting.

Posted by: Rorschach | February 5, 2010 3:56 AM

Mind you, I like VB so what do I know?

Uhm, yeah....

Posted by: Kel, OM | February 5, 2010 3:59 AM

If any of you ever get to Canberra, a trip to the Wig & Pen is a must!

Posted by: John Morales | February 5, 2010 4:03 AM

I find Coopers Sparkling Ale nicer than Pale Ale. It's got sediment in the bottle, so I like to keep it in the refrigerator for a day or two until it's well-settled, then carefully decant it into a glass (leaving the dregs in the bottle).

Do it right, and you get a clear, tasty and refreshing brew. Warning — it's fairly alcoholic.

Posted by: Andyo | February 5, 2010 4:43 AM

#131

Posted by: Miki Z | February 5, 2010 3:44 AM

For me, the chance of that happening is zero. I got a first and middle Spanish names, and two Japanese last names.

Interesting. I know there are a lot of Brazilians with a Japanese heritage so that there is a significant population of Portguese/Japanese names, but I don't remember hearing of a Spanish/Japanese one before.

Peru and Argentina do too. So if you hear a Spanish first name and Japanese last name (or Chinese and, more rarely, Korean), it's an almost certainty that they're Peruvian or Argentinian.

Posted by: Kel, OM | February 5, 2010 4:56 AM

I have honestly never found a beer I enjoyed; I find beer in general virtually undrinkable, and it invariably makes me feel ill.

I used to be like that, took me until I was about 22 or 23 to actually start drinking beer.

Posted by: Kel, OM | February 5, 2010 5:05 AM

I am guilty of not trying some of the ales here or the smaller brewery beers, maybe I should do that more, you guys feel free to show me the light !!

There's plenty of good ones. Start with James Squire, then move on to Little Creatures then Matilda Bay. Those should be available pretty much anywhere and there are enough good beers in there.

I find Coopers Sparkling Ale nicer than Pale Ale.

I do too actually, but buggered if I can find anywhere here I can get that on tap.

Posted by: Rorschach | February 5, 2010 5:15 AM

then move on to Little Creatures then Matilda Bay

I seem to remember drinking Matilda Bay in Perth, but that was a smooth dark ale IIRC, I wrote philosophical tractates onto the back of [what do you call the cardboard thingies you place your beerglass on] back then while listening to live music in the summer heat....
Nowadays I treat my diaries from when I was younger like nuclear waste, they can never see the light of day ever again...:-)

Posted by: windy | February 5, 2010 5:27 AM

I recently came across the Guinness "250" edition. meh. pretty thin gruel

Too bad about Beamish :(

Posted by: Feynmaniac | February 5, 2010 5:56 AM

Ugh! I had to click on the Coulter link in the related videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18aYlBNjW_0

Argh...

COULTER: ...New York City during the Republican National Convention. In fact, that's what I think heaven is going to look like.
_ _ _

COULTER: You walk past a mixed-race couple in New York, and it's like they have a chip on their shoulder. They're just waiting for somebody to say something, as if anybody would. And --

DEUTSCH: I don't agree with that. I don't agree with that at all. Maybe you have the chip looking at them. I see a lot of interracial couples, and I don't see any more or less chips there either way. That's erroneous.

COULTER: No. In fact, there was an entire Seinfeld episode about Elaine and her boyfriend dating because they wanted to be a mixed-race couple, so you're lying.

**headdesk**

Posted by: Rorschach | February 5, 2010 6:12 AM

The Coulter thing was mentioned.

Obligatory cultural reference

Such second-generation effects actually led to the break-up of my relationship with the daughter of Jews who fled the holocaust

I guess it would be 3rd or even 4th generation now, but in my case most certainly led to me not getting together with awesome jewish chick that would have been a slam dunk married 3 kids eternal love thingie otherwise.

Posted by: John Morales | February 5, 2010 6:20 AM

PZ, furniture site spammer using the ID "bobscience" is spamming in old threads.

Posted by: badgersdaughter | February 5, 2010 6:29 AM

Such second-generation effects actually led to the break-up of my relationship with the daughter of Jews who fled the holocaust

Gee. I'm the daughter, not of Jews who fled the Holocaust, but of a Jewish woman whose entertainer grandparents were underappreciated in Moscow and a crypto-Jewish man who fled the Hungarian revolution in a fine, high-handed impulsive moment prompted largely by the looks of the girls at the airlift station. Still, I can sympathize with the Holocaust-survivor daughter a little bit; my mother's mother doesn't trust a soul outside the family, and my father actually got a scared look on his face when I pointed out to him that his family's customs were mostly Jewish ones. There's some back-story there I was never told.

Posted by: WowbaggerOM | February 5, 2010 6:48 AM

Uh, dude, maybe I missed something, but I thought you said she just told you she wasn't interested in dating someone who wasn't Jewish.

Couldn't that be why she wasn't interested in dating someone who wasn't Jewish? I'd imagine it might make one slightly dubious about outsiders.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 5, 2010 7:00 AM

qbsmd,
My comment is at #240 on the thread.

Posted by: SC OM | February 5, 2010 7:05 AM

Uhm yeah thanks Wowbagger, I would have thought that was obvious.It is different from KG's experience I'm sure, because in 2010 its not about support for emotional trauma from the Holocaust anymore, but about social and parental pressures to socialise and date and marry within the group/cult, and it gets rationalised that way too.

WTF? That's not what we were talking about.

Stewart and O'Reilly are a bit like me and SC I think...:-)

o_O

Posted by: WowbaggerOM | February 5, 2010 7:12 AM

...because in 2010 its not about support for emotional trauma from the Holocaust anymore, but about social and parental pressures to socialise and date and marry within the group/cult, and it gets rationalised that way too.

I've never - to my knowledge - even met a Jewish woman let alone been romantically involved with one so it's not something I've encountered. As a general rule the relationships I've had are with the Australian equivalent of WASPs.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | February 5, 2010 7:28 AM

Stella (which is known in Britain as "The Wifebeater").

Known in the States as the Belgian Budweiser.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 5, 2010 7:35 AM

because in 2010 its not about support for emotional trauma from the Holocaust anymore, but about social and parental pressures to socialise and date and marry within the group/cult

By no means entirely: as SC said, the children of survivors have often suffered because of their parents' experiences, and the effects will probably last even unto the third and fourth generation. There are also still quite a number of first-generation survivors, and they can suffer a recrudescence of extreme fear, depression, guilt, etc. in old age.

As for pressure to marry within the community, it's certainly not very effective in the UK: about half of the Jews who marry at all marry a non-Jew. Only among the ultra-orthodox is marrying out rare.

Posted by: Kausik Datta | February 5, 2010 7:52 AM

Rorschach:

... in 2010 its not about support for emotional trauma from the Holocaust anymore, but about social and parental pressures to socialise and date and marry within the group/cult, and it gets rationalised that way too.

Pardon me, but that's perhaps only a part of the picture. In my meager knowledge of the Jewish people in academia (stemming primarily from having worked for 6 years in a Jewish institution under a Jewish boss with Jewish colleagues and friends), I have found that even now - even in 2009 - many of them, particularly the older individuals, think of the Holocaust travails as an eternal trauma that needs to be reinforced, at every possible situation, especially from the temples, in order to forge a Jewish identity. Many of them, including my ex-boss, still bring up the Jewish persecution card at the drop of a hat anytime they feel thwarted at something, even academic endeavors, such as getting funding proposals approved.

I must add this disclaimer that almost all of the Jewish individuals that I have known are American Jews, wholly or moderately observant, some of them Modern Orthodox, some Reform, and largely of the Ashkenazi ethnicity. I have known only two individuals who were born and brought up in Israel, and one of them, a postdoc working in an HIV related field, was vehemently opposed to the concept of evolution! (Yes, I am aware of the internal inconsistency of that last sentence, but it is true.)

Posted by: Lynna, OM | February 5, 2010 8:20 AM

Science News to sip with your coffee: Smart Grid Could Reduce Emissions by 12 Percent Excerpt:

A smart electrical power grid could decrease annual electric energy use and utility sector carbon emissions at least 12 percent by 2030, according to a new report from the Department of Energy's Pacific Northwest National Laboratory. The report, The Smart Grid: An Estimation of the Energy and CO2 Benefits, shows a direct link between the smart grid and carbon emissions. It evaluates how different functions of the smart grid could provide substantial reduction in energy use and carbon emissions — both directly by using new technology and indirectly by making renewable energy and efficiency programs more affordable and potentially larger.
     That means by fully utilizing a smart grid, the nation could prevent the equivalent of 442 million metric tons, or 66 typical coal power plants' worth, of carbon emissions from entering the atmosphere each year. Those 66 power plants produce the equivalent amount of electricity needed to power 70 million of today's homes.

Posted by: https://me.yahoo.com/hairychris444#96384 | February 5, 2010 8:37 AM

The problem with a lot of beers in the UK is the dreaded "Brewed under license by..." label. Most Stella (yup, Wifebeater) is actually brewed in the UK. Ditto Kronies, Asahi, yadda yadda.

However, if you look around you should be able to find the genuine stuff. As far as off licence/bottle shops go it's usually best to go to the corner shop as they often have the genuine stuff shadily imported from the continent! I tend to stick to Polish/Czech beer if taking out.

Oddly enough draft Guinness is now imported in most cases so you get the proper stuff in pubs. It still tastes different to drinking it in Ireland.

The beer that travels the worst IMO is Boddingtons. It tastes OK in Manchester but gets logarithmically worse the further from the brewery it goes.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 5, 2010 8:45 AM

On a lighter note is this the BBC's recognition of PZ's visit to the UK?

Ah, so you haven't cottoned on to the real purpose of PZ's visit to Ireland yet? Late last night, after long and fraught negotiations, an agreement was reached in northern Ireland between the Democratic Unionist Party (aka the Hate The Gays And Taigs Party), and Sinn Fein (aka the Not Blowing People Up Any More, Honest, Party) which has saved devolved government and the power-sharing agreement! Clearly, what they needed was a visit to Belfast from someone they could agree to loathe!

Posted by: triskelethecat | February 5, 2010 8:55 AM

@Walton and C_E: I don't really like beer, either. (Of course, I DO live in the US, where, I understand, it should be only used to strip paint according to the rest of the world). I like red wine and gin and bitter lemon. I'll take gin and tonic as an option only out at restaurants who don't carry Bitter Lemon (or if we are out at home...a rare occurance).

@Walton: since your "nom-du-comment" is not your name, is it related to Izaak Walton's "Lives"?

Posted by: SC OM | February 5, 2010 9:02 AM

But what I said isn't untrue.

It's colored by your attitude, as "bring up the Jewish persecution card at the drop of a hat anytime they feel thwarted at something," with no recognition of antisemitism, certainly suggests. Actually, I'm not saying I've heard that but I think it was justified - I've simply never heard Jewish people I know doing this.

They treat it as a historical fact, and move on.

They shouldn't. It's the central event of modern human history, it's almost unimaginable, and no genocide should ever be treated like this, especially when stuff like this is happening:

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/06/dr_who_dr_dawkins.php#comment-957485

[By the way, by linking to the seder thing above, I didn't mean to imply that any of the religious hooha has any validity, or that I don't recognize the non-mention of Palestinians or the hypocrisy this implies in many cases. My only point was that for many people it's about a broader recognition of suffering and oppression. This is what Gee seems to be incapable of when it comes to some other groups.

Gah - I have to go. Will check in later.]

Posted by: The 386sx Society | February 5, 2010 9:15 AM

Schlitz...

Posted by: Kevin | February 5, 2010 9:22 AM

Guinness - eh? The only beer that can double as dinner.

Posted by: Walton | February 5, 2010 9:31 AM

@Walton: since your "nom-du-comment" is not your name, is it related to Izaak Walton's "Lives"?

No. I've never even heard of Izaak Walton.

Posted by: qbsmd | February 5, 2010 9:41 AM

Knockgoats,

yeah, I read it. And Laden's responses. And BlindSquirrel's post.
I started reading his blog when he posted the Congo memoirs, which I found very entertaining, despite the fact that his ego seemed to have the mass of a black hole. Since then, I've found many of the things he's said strange, and not nearly well argued enough to be convincing, and often condescending. Maybe it is all meant to be a joke, and he's outsourced all of his serious blog content to Rachel Maddow.

Posted by: Dianne | February 5, 2010 9:44 AM

Ugly confession time: I can't stand alcohol in any form. I can blame any number of factors for this...questionable alcohol dehydrogenase genes, poor opinion of how people behave when drunk, dislike of being out of control...but the truth is I really just can't stand the taste. The first time I tried beer I thought someone was playing a practical joke and giving me urine...until the guy who provided the beer drank it himself. Other forms of alcohol make me want to take the bottle off to the lab to percipiate some DNA or something.

I don't really like bacon either. Are these bannable offenses?

Posted by: Lynna, OM | February 5, 2010 9:55 AM

You too can decorate your retail business with an inflatable mormon missionary. http://www.annuitech.com/ms/ftp/Jim/UValley_02.jpg Photo features the Missionary Mall, in Orem, Utah. This is the same Missionary Mall that has billboards up in my area, combining the word "mall" with the non-profit designation ".org", as in missionarymall.org.

Posted by: The 386sx Society | February 5, 2010 9:58 AM

I don't really like bacon either. Are these bannable offenses?

Not at all. In fact these are quite admirable character traits of which we all should strive for.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | February 5, 2010 10:04 AM

Are these bannable offenses?

Blasphemous to the Bacon and Beer lovers, yes. But then, blasphemy is not a bannable offence, but is encouraged.

Posted by: Feynmaniac | February 5, 2010 10:14 AM

Ugly confession time: I can't stand alcohol in any form.... I don't really like bacon either.

< pitchfork and torch >

BURN THE INFIDEL!!!1!!1

</ pitchfork and torch >

Posted by: Sanction | February 5, 2010 10:22 AM

Once again, Lynna, your Mormon-fu is impressive.

Posted by: Dahan | February 5, 2010 10:32 AM

Why all the hate on XXXX? I drank gallons of the stuff when I lived in Brisbane. Better than most of the stuff there.

Posted by: Feynmaniac | February 5, 2010 10:42 AM

If anyone wants to see real antisemitism at ScienceBlogs read this fool's comments. He lost it, started with the antisemitic epithets aimed at Mark Chu-Carroll and then cites Mein Kampf. All this over debate about a theorem (specifically, Cantor's diagonal argument). The title of the post describes him well: A Crank among Cranks.

Posted by: Kausik Datta | February 5, 2010 11:22 AM

It's colored by your attitude, as "bring up the Jewish persecution card at the drop of a hat anytime they feel thwarted at something," with no recognition of antisemitism, certainly suggests.

Pardon moi, SC, I assure you as ardently as I can that I have no 'attitude', so to speak, in this regard. I was making a statement of fact, a fact that I have personally encountered (read, 'heard with my own ears') several times in my own lab and that of others. As I mentioned earlier, the aforementioned speakers were mostly of an older generation (though one young medical student from Israel, who rotated through my lab seemed to have similar feelings). Now, I cannot attest to the mental or emotional status of these individuals when they spoke those words; what I mean is I simply don't know what prompted them to feel that way. All I can say is that the situations in which anti-Semitism was brought up may not have actually resulted from any anti-Semitism.

Actually, I'm not saying I've heard that but I think it was justified - I've simply never heard Jewish people I know doing this.

Please refer back to your own arguments against Henry Gee's outburst. You (and others) indicated that Henry trotted out an 'anti-Semitism' argument where it wasn't necessary or warranted or even appropriate, am I correct? From my own experience (that I recounted in the earlier message), Henry is not alone in feeling that way. I have heard others expressing the same sentiments. That's really all that I am saying, nothing more, nothing less.

And, of course, you'd agree with me that anti-Semitism very much exists in different parts of world, in different societies, right? But do remember that at the same time, there is also a lot of hypocrisy intricately woven into the fabric of facts and events. You yourself recognize that fact, when you say:

I didn't mean to imply that ... I don't recognize the non-mention of Palestinians or the hypocrisy this implies in many cases.

Therefore, the reality for the Jewish people isn't, or rather cannot be, a simple and straightforward us-versus-them or finger-pointing reality. There have been missteps on all sides. Sooner that fact is recognized and dealt with, more stable and harmonious it would become for humanity as a whole. The relentless bickering and mindless violence and meaningless loss of countless lives must end some time, no? I just hope I'd live to see the day.

They treat it as a historical fact, and move on.

They shouldn't. It's the central event of modern human history, it's almost unimaginable, and no genocide should ever be treated like this.

I absolutely agree with you about the importance of remembering the tragedy, but disagree on one point, and one point only. I don't think that 'suffering and oppression' or its endless regurgitation should be the central tenet of anyone's life. Just as it's true that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, it's also true that living consistently in the past does not make for a enduring and fulfilling existence. My firm belief - and one that is shared by many of my Jewish friends - is that given the most amazing intellectual capacity, scholarship and talents of the Jewish people in general, it is infinitely more preferable to live looking at the future, forging ahead and making meaningful contributions to the betterment of humanity - without having to drag a burden of sadness and survivor's guilt all the way through.

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 5, 2010 11:40 AM

constantly explaining to adults that my first name doesn't have a "c" at the beginning, nor a "e" at the end;

Man. Have I had a sheltered upbringing…

I wonder if the letter C is more out of fashion in Austria than in Germany…

and that I most certainly do NOT need to use a new "German" name, just because I no longer live in Poland.

You've told us about this before, and I still can't grasp it. Northern Germany hasn't had that much less of a Polish and otherwise "generic eastern" immigration history than the biggest Austrian cities, has it???

It just boggles the mind!

"We were going to house them there," she said of the beach resort. "They could stay there, go to school and live well and the parents could come and visit them."

The parents? Paying a trip to the Dominican Republic? With what fucking money?

I didn't expect it, but these Baptists are just as clueless as the Scientologists.

it is worth noting that in a few professions, such law, politics, and science, a woman is known largely by her last name. Changing her name part way through her career can mean her peers are less likely to be aware of work she did before marriage.

Indeed, scientists changing their names after their first publication seems to be a thing of the past.

Notice how he becomes more incoherent as the evening progresses. Now I'm not saying he has a drinking problem and I don't believe he has a drinking problem, but you can see from this pattern how someone might interpret this as a drinking problem.

B-)

The Redhead, who tries to celebrate as many holidays as possible

:-) :-) :-)

And on the subject of idiots *snort* how come Heddle the idiot is released from the dungeon when he is an asshat Calvinist, but Piltdownman, the crazy Catholic is still banned? He isn't any more a stoopid ass fool than Heddle.

The banned one has hopelessly crazy, creepy associations that he likes to dump on us, because he believes everyone has them and reminding us of them will make us admit the existence of demons. From this, we will somehow conclude that Jesus exists, too, hallelujah. Compared to this, heddle is outright sane! heddle only has two or three irrational assumptions and proceeds rationally from them.

And he wasn't "released from the dungeon". He had never been in there, as far as I remember, and I can't find any release notice in the dungeon either.

The first time PZ tells someone to "go away" (which did happen to heddle), that's not the actual act of bannination yet…

Guinness: It's like God pissing on my tongue!

:-D :-D :-D

He tried to engage

Except when he didn't and just tried to deep-psychology-guilt-trip us all.

I got a first and middle Spanish names, and two Japanese last names.

Too cool.

I don't remember hearing of a Spanish/Japanese one before.

Alberto Fujimori, strongman of Peru, who had to leave the country in a hurry because of a corruption scandal at least 10 years ago…

15, haven't looked back since.

Never. I seem to lack acquired tastes entirely. :-)

(…So, was I born liking cocoa, peppermint, and small amounts of green pepper? Looks like it. =8-) )

my father actually got a scared look on his face when I pointed out to him that his family's customs were mostly Jewish ones. There's some back-story there I was never told.

I cyber-know a linguist blogger (one of those people who learns one language after another just for the fun of it <facepalm>) who told me his grandfather only ever spoke "German" to him, so he grew up having "German" as yet another native language. That same grandfather had never spoken "German" to his daughter (the blogger's mother). WTF? Also, the "German" isn't any of the dialects spoken by German minorities in the region. To my untrained eyes, a small sample of this "German" looks exactly like Yiddish…

That means by fully utilizing a smart grid, the nation could prevent the equivalent of 442 million metric tons, or 66 typical coal power plants' worth, of carbon emissions from entering the atmosphere each year. Those 66 power plants produce the equivalent amount of electricity needed to power 70 million of today's homes.

Someone please close my mouth. It's drying out.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | February 5, 2010 11:59 AM

I'll be gone for a few days. I've got a job to do in Teton Valley (Rev BDC, eat your heart out)

Damn it!

And I missed this whole thing. Can someone point me to the relevant info?

Diagnose Lynna" transfers sent via PayPal to my daughter. I imagine that other people are wondering as well.

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | February 5, 2010 12:19 PM

Can someone point me to the relevant info?

Rev. BDC, try here.

Posted by: Andyo | February 5, 2010 12:24 PM

#209

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 5, 2010 11:40 AM

Alberto Fujimori, strongman of Peru, who had to leave the country in a hurry because of a corruption scandal at least 10 years ago…

His full name is actually Alberto Fujimori Fujimori. It's common in my dad's generation (second generation Japanese). When they came to Latin America, since the husband and wife had only one last name and it was the same, their kids took it twice. I'm not sure if this happened to the kids of any Americans or people from other countries with similar customs.

Posted by: GaryU | February 5, 2010 12:32 PM

Hey there. I'm new here. Gary, near Cincinnati, Ohio, USA.

Posted by: Sili | February 5, 2010 12:46 PM

217 comments already?!

And I'm at least three subthreads behind ...

This where I randomly pimp some art:

Fox!
Frog!

This coming Monday I'm gonna try to get rid of some hydrofluoric acid. If you never hear of me again (and notice), now you know why.

Which reminds me - I'd better contribute to the Diagnose Lynne Fond immediately (sorry, Haiti). I managed to whine enough at my unemployment ensures so they've fixed the error I made and paid out the rest of my dole. I seem to have about 5500,- available for the rest of the month (actually, that's what left until I hit the ceiling on my arranged overdraft).

*goes back to look for Paypal stuff*

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | February 5, 2010 12:56 PM

For those who give a crap, I would like to make it clear that the following is NOT me:

http://www.mrfire.com/

Oh yeah. That's the Secret guy. Skeptico had some back and forth (mostly Skeptiko pointing out what a moron he is) with him when the Secret was going big.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | February 5, 2010 12:58 PM

oh blockquoting fail. As in I didn't even do it.

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 5, 2010 1:07 PM

Complicated name arrangements in Denmark, China, and Spanish-speaking countries.

Fox!

Frog!

Jeholornis!

Close-up of Jeholornis!

Sitting on a contemporary (Early Cretaceous) ginkgo tree, the fruits of which have been found as stomach contents.

Incidentally, Jeholornis could be a junior synonym of Shenzhouraptor, or the other way round depending on which was published first (remarkably different to find out for Shenzhouraptor). And Jixiangornis and Dalianraptor, both named later, could also belong into this mix of long-tailed birds. Nobody has so far tried to sort this mess out, or at least nothing has been published.

Major mistake in the picture: the wing feathers are shown attached to the third finger, but should attach to the second.

Posted by: Pygmy Loris | February 5, 2010 1:11 PM

Just a couple of things before I run to town:

I, like Walton and a few others, cannot stand beer. The taste causes me to gag. If I drink it's usually sweet wine, tequila, vodka, or Jack Daniels and drinks that contain these spirits. OTOH, I very rarely drink because my hangovers are so bad!

Posted by: The 386sx Society | February 5, 2010 1:18 PM

He [Jesus] would have mixed with Pharynguloids. I'll bet the conversation with PZ would have been fascinating to listen to.

Actually I imagine it would go something more along the lines of this:

http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2007/02/law_of_attracti.html

I remember there being some really dumb non sequiturs spoken by Jesus, so I think if Jesus were to show up here, it would be yet another case of a "profound wise" dude is confronted with actual real logic, and reveals self to be complete idiot.

Posted by: Gyeong Hwa Pak, Lao Daung Duen | February 5, 2010 1:22 PM

Mr. T at 104

What a music nerd. :)

Posted by: Sili | February 5, 2010 1:36 PM

Complicated name arrangements in Denmark, China, and Spanish-speaking countries.

David, I really have better thing to do than engage in SIWOTIS. Please be more careful with your links.

Also I am grown old and impatient and as a result I just got myself elected to the tenants association last night because noöne fucking else could be arsed to volunteer and it was getting far too late already (in fact I was several hours late to 'work' today because I overslept ...).

Posted by: Sili | February 5, 2010 1:42 PM

What do you mean by "let"? Aren't you being encouraged enough to finish your thesis…?

Damn. I thought I could shift the blame.

How is this done, BTW? With powdered limestone in a lot of cold water?

That would prolly work, too. I'm gonna do it in two steps. Neutralising with Sodium hydroxide after dilution and then precipitation with Calcium nitrate.

Posted by: Alan B | February 5, 2010 1:57 PM

I go to bed having answered all the questions, followed up all the sub-threads and in seconds, while I was preparing my bed calls message I get a dozen comments, many assuming things I do not think I said and certainly not what I would agree to. And now another 230+ comments. All inside 24 hours.

If you really want me to reply to some of those comments then you are going to have to wait until I catch up.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | February 5, 2010 2:01 PM

Was always careful with HF acid after I talked to the local glass man who told me about losing his fingernails to it. The doctor told him to come back if it got in his bones and he would give him some painkillers and sympathy. I made it as needed in a lead dish with sulfuric and CaF2. This is in my parents basement.(during high school, wiseguys)

BS

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | February 5, 2010 2:06 PM

With powdered limestone in a lot of cold water?

Neutralising with Sodium hydroxide after dilution and then precipitation with Calcium nitrate.

Actually, both work, but David's method is preferred for small amounts. Mix it all together, and walk away for a while. At our place, we would lab pack it out.

Posted by: Alan B | February 5, 2010 2:19 PM

#235 Sili

If you need background information then the following may be helpful (hopefully, however, you will have properly risk assessed procedures where you work)

http://www.chess.cornell.edu/safety/chemsop/hydrflrc.htm

Waste Disposal: Hydrofluoric acid should be neutralized to a pH of >5.5 and disposed of by pouring down the fume hood drain and flushing with large quantities of water (as per Appendix A of The Chemical Hygiene Plan). The authorized person using this material is responsible for the safe collection, preparation and proper disposal of waste unless otherwise stated below. Waste shall be disposed of as soon as possible and in accordance with all laboratory and University procedures.
Specific instructions: Neutralize waste acid with sodium bicarbonate or sodium bicarbonate solutions until a pH of 5.5 or higher is achieved. Drain dispose with large volume of water.

Go safely!

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | February 5, 2010 2:37 PM

Yeah. The word has lost all meaning.

No accounting for taste, but since we're sharing drink prefs:
1. beer--I will and have drunk every type (in most cases* to excess at least once), and damn it, I can even enjoy a Bud Light or 3 on a hot summer afternoon, but flavor-wise I prefer 'em hoppy or dark. Bitter is good. Very good.
2. wine, red and dry, if beer is not available (e.g. my ex-wife-#-2's place), or at a classy-enough dinner table.
3. Irish whiskey, but only as a supplement to #1.
4. maybe a nice Scotch or bourbon on the rocks if offered, but never a purchase.

Any taste of sweet fruit or sugar--no thank you!

*hahaha, in most cases...of beer? THese are the jokes, people.

I'm line there though I prefer bourbon over other whiskey (or whisky) and I want to feel like the wine I'm drinking smashed me in the face. Hence my preference for California Cabernet. I can appreciate subtlety, but I don't prefer it.

Posted by: Sili | February 5, 2010 2:47 PM

He said it belittled the real horror of real anti-semitism.

BINGO!

That's why I get annoyed when the state of Israël levels the charge of antisemitism at anyone who dares deplore Zionism.

I think I've at some points considered embracing the labels of antisemite if they continued, but I guess I'ven't been paying attention the plight of the Palestinians lately.

Posted by: Alan B | February 5, 2010 2:48 PM

#239

Calcium gluconate gel is a must for work with HF.

Someone ordered some 40% hydrofluoric acid where I last worked. We had a procedure that nobody orders chemicals without the knowledge of my Section. Once we found out about it, we had little difficulty in persuading them that they didn't need it. For a start, Company procedures required a First Aider specifically trained in dealing with HF on site 24/7.

The same idiot also put in an order for enough potassium cyanide to kill all the staff several times over (once would be one time too many!). I found out that he had a standard list of chemicals from previous employment and was "stocking up". No. He didn't need potassium cyanide either although both potassium cyanide and hydrofluoric acid have their place - just not where I worked!!

Posted by: AJ Milne | February 5, 2010 2:52 PM

...The word has lost all meaning... since we're sharing drink prefs...

To clarify, my current favourite martini is: 3 oz. Sapphire*, 1 drop (literally--moisten finger, fling drop off it into shaker) vermouth, 3 nice, plump olives. Shake like hell over ice, so it fizzes nicely upon pour and flattens out quick, drink while cold. The fact that there are bars that can call something containing Red Bull a martini, is, as per previous observation, part of life's rich pageant, and something to add to the 'yes, I really tried this' list, not so much something I'd drink while there was much of an alternative.

As per a linear preference, I dunno. I'm moody. Sometimes, the brain sez: 'wine now'. Sometimes it sez 'Sapphire and olives now'. On hot days, it could be almost any beer, from near tasteless lagers through meaty ales through stouts in which you could stand up a fork...

And I really like Irish whisky. Not against Scotch, but I dunno... it can all get so terribly serious, and the last time I spent like $90 a bottle, I couldn't honestly say it struck me the difference I noticed was worth quite that much. And re Irish whisky, my current gripe is, at the liquor store I visited the other day, they had no Bushmills, for some reason, but honestly, Jamesons (which they did have) is fine with me, too. I'm not especially sectarian about the whole thing.

(*/I was previously slightly shamed by this preference, Sapphire being a relatively new thing, but I believe it was persons on this very blog who assured me this has now been accepted into the great fraternity of martini bases, even, perhaps, rapidly becoming canonical, so I can cop to this honestly now, which I find a great relief. It is time I moved beyond living a lie.)

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 5, 2010 2:54 PM

I quite like beer (I mean, of course, proper beer - cask-conditioned bitter - but very rarely drink it, because it has an embarrassingly strong diuretic effect on me - one pint and I'm sidling off to the gents every half hour for the rest of the evening. Irish whiskey is much more palatable than Scotch - but still not enough that I keep any in the house. Dry red wine is the only drink I'd be really sorry to give up.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 5, 2010 3:02 PM

Gary, near Cincinnati, Ohio, USA.

WOTI. Gary is in northewestern Indiana. If the wind is right, you might be able to smell it in Cincinnati.

I will skip the obligatory link to The Music Man, if that's OK with everybody else.

Posted by: strange gods before me, OM | February 5, 2010 3:06 PM

Strange gods, there may be a test of whether diagnoses really change rates coming soon. The recommendation for the DSM-V is to put all PDDs into ASD, but also to tighten down AS diagnoses (as I understand it), and no one is sure how agencies will use that data to determine treatment eligibility. So if diagnoses are the cause of the rise, one would think those numbers would change once the new rules are in place; if it's an organic rise, the trend shouldn't be affected much.

That's an interesting point. Thanks, Carlie.

Posted by: blf | February 5, 2010 3:11 PM

I will skip the obligatory link to The Music Man, if that's OK with everybody else.

The Forty Years Ago Horrid Music War is in the other thread.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 5, 2010 3:14 PM

The room that houses my usual barstool--due to their 16 beer taps and pretty good taste--has (fake) Red Bull on the squirt gun.
Kids today!

Posted by: Alan B | February 5, 2010 3:20 PM

#21 Knockgoats

Perhaps a good place to start on this thread:

In reference to the name-change stuff, of course I've no objection to anyone changing their name, for any reason.

Nor have I.

What I was questioning ... was Alan B.'s expressed preference for women taking their husband's surname on marriage. Why is it any concern of his?

It isn't, and I never said it was a concern of mine.

Does he just frown inwardly when a female acquaintance refuses to do the decent thing ...

"do the decent thing" is your wording, not mine. I might just wonder (in passing) why someone would choose to go against the current conventions of British society but it is definitely not something I would loose sleep about. It's their life. No one has to explain or justify their actions to me. It's none of my blankety blank business and I don't intend to make it so.

... or does he deliberately address her as Mrs. Husbandsname?

How ridiculous! That is something I have never even have thought of doing! Why on earth or anywhere else would I want to be so borish?

However, I don't think anyone should be surprised or upset if I were to use "Mrs Husbandsname" if I did not know they wished to be referred to differently. After all, whatever may be the case elsewhere, it is still the majority (but not universal) convention in this country to do so.

In general, if I did not know them, I would try to listen and be sensitive to any clues they might drop before I used a name. With so many couples living together outside of marriage it would be silly to launch in with Mrs Husbandsname and get egg on my face.

Posted by: MrFire | February 5, 2010 3:35 PM

picric acid

*Monty Python facepalm*

Our thrrreee most diabolical acids are:

triflic acid (dissolves you on the outside)

hydrofluoric acid (dissolves you on the inside)

picric acid (blows your outsides and insides the fuck up)

Posted by: Alan B | February 5, 2010 3:41 PM

#256 David Marjanović

Sorry, David. I have confused you. My fault.

Calcium gluconate is used in the form of a gel for first aid treatment of HF skin contact. HF will continue to attack the skin, flesh and eventually bone unless it is treated chemically and calcium gluconate gel is the preferred method. The only link with the disposal of HF is the HF itself.

It would be standard practice to have calcium gluconate gel and a first aider trained in its use whenever HF is used (and preferably even when it is merely being stored - you may need to take action following an inadvertent release or a fire).

for example:

http://www.spservices.co.uk/product_info.php/cPath/93/products_id/3479

(This just happens to be the first link when you Google calcium gluconate gel.)

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 4:14 PM

I hate you all. This discussion has prompted me to make myself a dry martini (small spray of oil from the skin of a fresh, unwaxed lime into the shaker, ice cubes, Hendrick's gin, run around the shaker once with a sealed bottle of Noilly Prat, STIR the mixture, pour through strainer into chilled martini glass containing two rinsed pimento stuffed green olives).

I shall probably have to have another one now. Bastards.

HF discussion:

Calcium gluconate gel is essential, as others have said. I always used to quench HF (when I worked with it and other really nasty shit like BrF) with calcium salts, due to the lower toxicity of the resulting CaF compared to alkali metal fluorides (NaF ORL-RAT LD50: 52 mg/kg, KF ORL-RAT LD50: 245 mg/kg, CaF ORL-RAT LD50:4250 mg/kg for example). Sure it's usually slower, and can be hotter, but stick it in a disposal tub at the back of a spare fume hood and everyone is happy. Saves a lot of agro too.

Louis

Posted by: Alan B | February 5, 2010 4:33 PM

#268

Let's have a look: Chromium hexacarbonyl.

Labels required:

Skull and Crossbones Toxic.
N with picture of dead tree and fish Dangerous to the environment (as are all(?) chromium compounds).

So, what other risks?

R21 Harmful in contact with skin.
R22 Harmful if swallowed.
R23 Toxic by inhalation.
R43 May cause sensitization by skin contact.
R44 Risk of explosion if heated under confinement.
R49 May cause cancer by inhalation.
R50 Very toxic to aquatic organisms.
R53 May cause long-term adverse effects in the aquatic environment.

Nice stuff! How do we work with it?

S36 Wear suitable protective clothing.
S37 Wear suitable gloves.
S45 In case of accident or if you feel unwell, seek medical advice immediately (show the
label whenever possible.)
S53 Avoid exposure - obtain special instructions before use.
S60 This material and its container must be disposed of as hazardous waste.
S61 Avoid release to the environment. Refer to special instructions / safety data sheets.

Hm. I've seen worse. (But I still wouldn't play with it!!)

Posted by: WowbaggerOM | February 5, 2010 4:39 PM

I've recently taken a step back from meatspace interaction - and, since I live alone and considering drinking alone to be a bad thing (I associate it with alcoholism), I really don't hit the booze very often any more.

When I do it's usually beer or wine; I rarely drink spirits anymore, though I am developing a fondness for g&ts; and martinis - as evidenced by my thinking (thanks to the comments upthread) about how nice one of the latter would be right now - and it's 8 in the morning where I am...

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 4:40 PM

Alan B,

A personal fave: R57: Toxic to bees.

Important.*

Louis

*Actually, it IS very important, but it's clustered away with a series of really nasty sounding risk phrases in the 40s and 50s and seems so timid by comparison.

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 4:44 PM

Oh and as for the "wife takes husdnad's name" thing. My wife didn't take my name, I'm very glad about it as is she, and we tossed for which name the kid takes. The kid lost. He got mine! ;-)

In this day and age I think there really is no wrong or right on the issue, it's individual choice. I know plenty of my female friends that would fight to take their husband's name and plenty of others who'd fight just as hard not to. Let 'em do as they will sayeth I. Puritans on either side be damned.

Louis

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 4:47 PM

Wowbagger #273,

8am in the morning and you haven't started drinking? What are you man or mouse? ;-)

Louis

P.S. All: "husdnads"? Obviously meant "husband's". This martini is better than I thought.

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 4:50 PM

Knockgoats #278,

That was always the general impression we were given. We got a great safety lecture about it once. A medic came in and told us how far up the arm he'd amputate for each hour after an HF burn on the hand. He may well have been exaggerating but we treated the stuff with some respect after that!

Louis

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 4:52 PM

Sven #280:

I wasn't too tempted at the time, but an hour or so later, if I said I didn't wonder what "might have been", I'd be lying.

Millions of pounds worth of street drugs, and only one small safety officer between me and riches...

Oh well.

Louis

Posted by: Ichthyic | February 5, 2010 4:56 PM

Also, if you plan on doing much with the HF, be sure you're using a fume hood with a plexiglass shield, not real glass. The fumes, they etch good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lf4vq2UU9hk

Posted by: SteveV | February 5, 2010 5:16 PM

Knockgoats #278

The reason for the freon 114 plant was to use some of the product from the HF plant next door.
Operators in this plant needed to wipe over the gauges with a wet rag to make the readings visible through the deeply etched glass.
The plant was originally built in the 1940s to provide HF for the UK atomic weapon program (UF6 I guess) We shipped about 20tonnes/week by road tanker.
Fume Hoods? wimps

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 5:19 PM

Oh and also Carlie, your advice in #282 is spot on. Too many people forget the "little" things like gluconate tape/indicator papers in the hood. They make all the difference to be honest.

I worked with phosgene* once, and making indicator papers that I put in the fume hood saved my life.

Louis

*There was no alternative, but I'm buggered if I'll do that again.

Posted by: Carlie | February 5, 2010 5:26 PM

Oh great, Google has changed its homepage again. GOD. Why do they think they have to tweak it every couple of months?

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 5, 2010 5:36 PM

Oh great, Google has changed its homepage again.

? looks the same to me

Posted by: Katrina | February 5, 2010 5:47 PM

Have a safe trip, Lynna. We'll be looking forward to your return.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 5, 2010 5:53 PM

huh. Its (Teh Google, pbui) appearance is browser-specific.

Posted by: Alan B | February 5, 2010 6:04 PM

#274 Knockgoats

Ah. I can see where you are coming from.

This is the trouble on the internet. It is difficult for a 60+ year old to put a nuanced position across amongst a pack of ravening young wolves (otherwise known as Pharynguloids) who look on things in a modern way. (I know. I know. There are many people out there over a huge range of ages, backgrounds, etc. etc. Yadder, yadder. But it's fun to picture some of you that way.)

My future wife and I discussed this (and a huge number of other issues) before we got married. We both preferred that we took the same surname. The cultural convention 40+ years ago in the UK was for the wife to take her husband's surname. We were both entirely happy with this and if anyone had asked we would both have stated independently that we strongly preferred to do it this way.

Why did we have that preference? Because we both felt the same way about the nature of the union we were entering into. (Rearrange into better English if you wish.)

We considered that we were to be united for life. We were in a very real sense (and I just know someone is going to hate me saying this) ONE. United. Not absorbed into the Borg. We were still our own people with our own likes and dislikes, our own personalities.

Let us suppose that my surname was Bogis. (It is not although I know several people by that name - a good, old, Norfolk name). And suppose her surname was de Pfeffel-Johnson (it's not - it's part of the name of Boris Johnson, Lord Mayor of London). One of the things she "gave up" for me when we married was her name which sounds like it could have had a noble history. She would no longer be called Melanie (not her name) de Pfeffle-Johnson. She would carry the title "Mrs Bogis" for the rest of our lives. If I pre-deceased her she would be free to take whatever title she wanted but until then, Melanie Bogis it was.

She would give up a part of her identity and independence. I would also give up part of my identity and independence. I would never again be able to act selfishly. I was now part of "Mr and Mrs Bogis" Incorporated, if you like. The family firm. Previously I was Alan (assuming that is really my given name) Bogis. Free. Single. Largely [Ed. Totally] selfish. Young. Handsome. Debonair. (OK, perhaps not all of that but I can dream can't I?)

The giving up of her name was more visible but the giving up of ourselves to each other was just as real to both of us.

We now had a common purpose: to love and support each other, no matter what, "for richer or for poorer, in sickness and in health, until death did us part". To share all we had with each other. Sharing our bodies in sexual union ("one flesh") being only symbolic of a union of body, mind, purpose, love for each other, desire to please each other. To become best friends, to do all we could to help each other to achieve our life goals, together and separately. This is why I found rather offensive the suggestion that by having a preference (which she shares) for my wife to take on my surname I considered my wife to be "an appendage". And actually rather ridiculous.

The sharing of our surnames is to us a symbol of the sharing we try to achieve in our union together. We achieve it well enough for us to still be together and for us to be each other's best friend and lifelong companion.

Is it necessary for my wife to give up her surname to do that? Of course not but it is a metaphor if you like. We prefer it that way. We like it (both of us). It is our personal preference. We wear our shared name as a badge of pride. We aren't Mr Alan Bogis and Miss Melanie de Pfeffle-Johnson. We are Mr and Mrs Bogis.

Others don't want to do it that way? Fine! I am not going to impose my ideas on others although I might comment on what I know has worked for us.

Could I have expressed it better originally? Thinking from my background, from my angle. No. Realising that others would come at it from a totally different angle and with different life experiences, then I should have been more careful or maybe kept my mouth shut.

Posted by: Alan B | February 5, 2010 6:31 PM

#284

Calcium fluoride is the main mineral (fluorite or fluospar) for the production of fluorine compounds. It is highly insoluble (if you can combine those words) and hence it is harmless except under extreme conditions (strong acids,fire).

In the EU sodium fluoride is classed as toxic (acute lethal dose around 5-10 g) and irritant, especially as a powder. At low concentrations in water, around 1 mg/kg (ppm) IIRC, it was used to add to drinking water and while there has been much discussion it is believed harmless at this level and present in drinking water in many places.

Hence, there are 2 ways of disposing of HF and the choice is going to be dependent on local legislation for dealing with hazardous waste:

Concentrate as calcium fluoride to produce a solid that is harmless (except under extreme conditions) or

Neutralise and dilute to safe levels ("the poison is in the dose").

At Cambridge University in the UK they appear to use concentrate as harmless solid for spills and neutralise and disperse for disposal of HF.

Posted by: Alan B | February 5, 2010 6:47 PM

#302

Anything fresh will have to wait until the morning for me. It's c.23:45, I'm to bed!

Posted by: The 386sx Society | February 5, 2010 7:34 PM

Now see this is why Dawkins's "complex god" argument is so very, very naïve...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHKMsmqaV3Q

All they have to do is say that god is not complex, but god is simple. Budda bing, badda bang, game over.

Posted by: Bone Oboe | February 5, 2010 7:38 PM

The unfortunately cumbersomely named "https://me.yahoo.com/hairychris444#96384" @ #175 said:

The beer that travels the worst IMO is Boddingtons. It tastes OK in Manchester but gets logarithmically worse the further from the brewery it goes.

If that is the case, I wonder what I'm missing when I drink it here in the lower left hand corner of Oregon. Probably more than I'd care to consider, owing to the fact that I actually rather enjoy the stuff.
Hell, I'm probably missing the same thing that I'm missing drinking Guinness Draught from a can in the same vicinity.

Finally came across some Dogfish Head brew at the local grocer, but there was a bit of "sticker shock^*." I'll have to overcome said shock and give it a try though, I think I recall reading highly of it here, on other beer leaning threads.

^*Not as bad as the prices I've seen on 6 packs of Stone "Oaked Arrogant Bastard" Ale, but still fairly high, for my wallet at the moment.

Cheers to all.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 5, 2010 7:44 PM

Finally came across some Dogfish Head brew at the local grocer

oo! 60 or 90-minute? Both delicious (the 120's too over the top for me). In fact, I'm on my way out the door for a pint or 4 of the 60 down the street.
Interact virtually with you-all later.

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 5, 2010 7:57 PM

Ladies, gentlemen, naked bunnies, and cuttlefish (in no particular order),

We are living in interesting times. Do you remember this recent story? You probably didn't know it in that much detail in the first place, so just read it again.

Then get this. Read it carefully, perhaps a few times over, to let it really sink in.

With your head still spinning (something that probably can't happen to cuttlefish or other cephalopods, I'm afraid), let this spin in front of your eyes. And then, after being warned that several things are wrong with the snout, scroll down to read the text and finally follow the link to here.

I don't think there's evidence for a featherless snout so far, but I haven't read the paper yet. Anyway, have a nice weekend. :-) I intend to spend mine in a mild endorphine rush :-)

Anchiornis is a troodontid, closely related to the birds, but apparently still less to than Archaeopteryx.

==================================================

Chemistry anecdotes! Yay!

Palynologists routinely use HF to dissolve rocks and leave nothing but the pollen or spores, and there are some at the University of Vienna, so I was once told about one who once asked her colleagues if she could take a little bottle of HF on a plane and expected a positive answer. (This was after all when liquids weren't banned on planes yet.)

In school, the chemistry teacher once told us he had been destroying some KCN when he noticed the smell...

(No idea what the fuck potassium cyanide was doing in a school. I do think it was stored in the poison cupboard, though.)

And the explosion stories from the chemical institutes of the University of Vienna... I was told about someone who worked there and once heard an explosion. His first thought, as a WWII veteran, was "artillery – it's war again". And indeed, there was a casualty, unless I'm confusing this with another explosion.

I was also told that, whenever chemists get together, sooner or later the conversation becomes an endless list of the most spectacular accidents. We seem to be confirming this right now. =8-)

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 5, 2010 8:05 PM

still less [s]o than

Fixed it for me.

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 8:24 PM

Chemists are the only group of (non-emergency services) people I know that run towards an explosion or fire.

In my experience they then usually say something like "that's not a fire. I was working with diethyl zinc one time when..."*

Louis

*This is one instance of a much larger phenomenon known as "the chemistry dick". When two chemists encounter one another there is a distinct subset of chemists who will whip out their respective chemistry dicks to see who has the larger one. It's very funny to observe at conferences during the Q and A sessions. There's always someone just waiting to ask a killer question, and it's always funny to see some smug git get taken down a peg or two. Questioner or answerer. Don't get me wrong, the chemistry is fun and the main purpose, but the chemistry dick bingo helps things trot nicely along too.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | February 5, 2010 8:37 PM

I have been reading with interest. Louis--could you explain to me "chemistry dick" in more detail? I don't get the metaphor, but I would like to. What is the sort of thing one would say in such an encounter that might be the equivalent of whipping it out?

Posted by: Carlie | February 5, 2010 8:42 PM

I hardly ever read Zuska, but I'm glad I saw this one.

And once again, Greg couldn't find the point if it was painted on the broad side of a barn. Too funny.

Zuska is good; her first mansplaining thread had me in tears of dramatic irony.

Posted by: badgersdaughter | February 5, 2010 8:44 PM

MrFire @ 260: After thinking about it for a while, I think it was Taiwan beer. But I can't swear to it, as it was about ten years ago and the little Houston restaurant where I had it is no longer even in business anymore.

Posted by: badgersdaughter | February 5, 2010 8:46 PM

well, I'm perfectly aware that Taiwan =/= China... but it was a Chinese restaurant and I couldn't remember the beer's name. Sorry to all nationalists of one kind or the other.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 5, 2010 8:53 PM

David Marjanović #311

Every American of a certain age knows that dinosaurs were green.

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | February 5, 2010 8:58 PM

Every American of a certain age knows that dinosaurs were green.

around here, they still are.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 5, 2010 9:06 PM

I can understand that certain people dislike beer. I detest the taste and odor of gin and you won't find a juniper bush growing in my yard.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | February 5, 2010 9:17 PM

'Tis (@325):

A little nostalgia leaking over from the earworm thread?

This is the intersection of dinosaurs, music, and childhood nostalgia for me. In print, this was my dinosaur lore.

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | February 5, 2010 9:22 PM

@Louis- Thanks for the clarification. We biologists do that too. I thought maybe there was a special kind of jousting that chemists practice.

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 9:32 PM

Oh and BS, if you want picric acid to explode, I've always found nice large, dry crystals work best.

Aaaaaaaand MI5 will now be turning up on my doorstep to ask questions.

Brief word of serious, folks: Don't try any of this at home, it is no longer the 1950s, (or even the 80s or 90s), this shit does not fly anymore. The police take what can only be described as an INCREDIBLY dim view of Recreational Chemistry Sans Licence.

For all the jokes, this stuff does go wrong occasionally too. Having your hands blown off/getting blinded/worse is not unheard of and not as rare as we might like. Some student in the Ukraine (I think) died recently because he liked to perk up the flavour of his gum with citric acid, and one day he got the wrong chemical out of the cupboard, dipped his gum as per usual, and managed to blow his face off. Google is as ever, your friend here.

It's all fun and games until someone snuffs it.

Louis

Posted by: Antiochus Epiphanes | February 5, 2010 9:35 PM

"way too hot" dammit.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 5, 2010 9:38 PM

Washing a chalkboard with picric acid and watching the chemistry teacher writing amidst a torrent of small explosions is quite funny. Especially since washing the board again just puts the picric acid into solution but doesn't remove it from the board.

Or so I've heard.

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 9:42 PM

@ 'Tis #339,

Oh now THAT is inspired! It's not often I come across a piece of chemical lunacy that not only haven't I thought of, but I wish I *HAD* thought of. If I had a hat on I would doff it. I am thinking of buying a series of hats just so I can doff them.

{Applause}

Louis

Posted by: Carlie | February 5, 2010 9:43 PM

I don't even want to think about the total volume of acetone I've breathed/absorbed through my skin.

It strikes me as a bit odd that someone who just wrote a post about the objectification of an athlete is so averse to any discussion of said athlete's politics.

I'm not sure if it was that, or if she was just annoyed that he went to a tangential place right off the bat in the first comment without even acknowledging the topic of the post, or if she saw it as another way to somehow objectify/judge the athlete on something other than her athletic abilities. No clue.

Posted by: Carlie | February 5, 2010 9:48 PM

Oh wait, I get it. It was a post with a side dose of mansplaining meme, and then it looked like Greg's comment implied that what he had to say about her politics was more important than what she was saying about objectification, therefore being some mansplaining. I think.

Posted by: Rawnaeris | February 5, 2010 9:54 PM

So while there are a large number of fellow chemists around, could I maybe get some tips on finding a job? Or interview tips? I'm fresh outta getting my BS and would rather like to be making money.

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 10:11 PM

Rawnaeris,

Stay out of chemistry!* With GSK and AZ both laying off oodles of staff the pharma job market is super saturated (Both sides of the Atlantic, I'm in the UK).

Depends what you want to do really. I went into synthetic organic/medicinal chem so I know that best. If you, say, wanted to go into the nuclear industry as a fluorine/inorganic chemist, then I could only give you broad ideas.

If it's a chemistry job you want focus on the technical interview. It is incredibly important, esp in pharma. It really is job dependent, but if you can't demonstrate some genuine enthusiasm for the science and back that up with a good technical interview, then you're stuffed. As with all jobs, people want to work with people they *can* work with. Pick up a good book on interview technique and read it cover to cover (I liked "Great Answers to Tough Interview Questions" by Martin John Yate, and "Career Management for Chemists" by John Fetzer).

You get one shot at an interview, so go fully suited and booted, and have an attitude as professional and smart as your suit! Don't do things like this: one guy I interviewed continually stared at my colleague's (co-interviewer) tits, addressed all his comments only to me even when answering questions asked by my female colleague. That is a spectacularly bad move.

Louis

* Ok, please don't. I think it's a spectacularly rewarding career, but you are unlikely to get paid incredibly well (compared to say your laywer co-grads) and you will work very hard for every penny. These are not necessarily bad things, just ask yourself what you want. If it's a big mansion and more Ferraris than you can chuck a stick at, then it is unlikely you will find that in chemistry. If it is an intellectually diverse and stimulating career with a good standard of living but some risk (the pharma sector is fluid atm), then chemistry all the way baby!

Posted by: Louis | February 5, 2010 10:12 PM

Ok I am off to bed (no cheering!). Insomnia can't last forever and I am out of gin for my martinis. Luckily I'm not as think as you drunk I am.

Adios!

Louis

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian | February 5, 2010 10:14 PM

Blind Squirrel #344

Drinkable mead? How is this possible?

I don't understand your surprise at "drinkable mead". Does "mead" mean something else to you?

How long does he age it?

Anywhere between 6 and 18 months, I think. He once got the bronze medal at a UK Mead competition, but the gold and silver were made in labs. He makes his in a caravan (and his hair is at least 7 foot long). He's been offered good money, a few times, to go commercial.

Posted by: Rawnaeris | February 5, 2010 10:23 PM

@ Louis: Thank you for the book recommendations, I will look them up on Amazon. I do prefer inorganic to organic. And I do love my chem. When I said I was ready to make money, I meant I'd rather have an income as opposed to my current status of unemployed.

Posted by: WowbaggerOM | February 5, 2010 10:29 PM

One of the Adelaide wineries (Tapestry, IIRC) makes mead, and we bought a couple of bottles of it last time we were out that way. Great for camping in cooler weather; warm it up in a saucepan and everything smells of honey and spices while you get yourself good and drunk.

I can only go camping if I drink heavily - otherwise I don't sleep and get very crabby.

Posted by: Rawnaeris | February 5, 2010 10:43 PM

Oh, and back on the topic of chemistry anecdotes. Here's a good 'what not to do'.

Our Chem Club found a (very) old version of the Whoosh bottle experiment. So a few of them along with the stockroom supervisor decided to test it to make sure it would be safe for a demo. It called for a large glass bottle and isopropyl alcohol. Pour some in, and light.

There are a few things wrong with this version.
1) Glass bottle, new plastic is safer.
2) You're supposed to pour out the excess alcohol.
3) It's supposed to be done in cool indoors.

What they did:
Decided to test outside. Good idea until you realize that they did it in the middle of a Texas Summer. For those of you not familiar with one, they average 100F for normal temps. They did it on hot concrete. In the glass bottle. The stockroom supervisor lit it. It exploded immediately and violently. He got whisked off to the ER for a deep cut to his wrist. The cops and fire and medics got called out and it was a huge fiasco. I think the glass was found 70+ feet away. And we have a video. Which is how we found out just how lucky the stockroom guy was. On slow-mo, you can see a large piece of glass go sailing over his shoulder at face height. He's fine, btw. And no one else out there even got a scratch. But my uni will never do that particular experiment again.

Posted by: Ring Tailed Lemurian | February 5, 2010 10:58 PM

Blind Squirrel #358
Ah, I see. Shame I don't know his recipe. My friend is quite secretive about it all. (We suspect magic is involved).

Posted by: Miki Z | February 5, 2010 11:57 PM

CNN reports that the missionaries/kidnappers in Haiti and their church have stopped answering questions. The lawyer for the group is suggesting the organizer, Silsby, as a sacrificial lamb.

"Let me tell you my personal impression," Coq [the group's lawyer] said Friday, "the nine other people are victims. They knew absolutely nothing about these stories. They were extremely touched by the disaster which struck Haiti. They only came here to show their solidarity and compassion.
"They did not know this story that Laura wanted to leave with children."

If the judge is willing to accept a lifetime sentence for Silsby and let the rest go, I suggest that this would be the Christian thing for Silsby to do. (AFAIK, nobody but me is suggesting this.)

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 6, 2010 12:08 AM

Every American of a certain age knows that dinosaurs were green.

My grandparents had a "cottage" on a lake in southwestern Michigan. (My parents met at this lake; another story.) I spent at least a month there every summer throughout my childhood. It was the dominant gas corp there and then and we always had an inflatable Sinclair bronto or two around. Always. *nostalgic sigh*

Can be detonated by touching with a feather. Word up.

*eyebrows up*

BS @#328 (cont): wow. Much respect.
Me and my buddy Fred across the street made all varieties of gunpowder, with sparkles and colors and bangs and what have you (this would have been mm 8th grade?) but...wow.

The best alcoholic drink in the world is the mead made by a beekeeper I know.

Intrigued, I am.
Hey, anybody got any absinthe?

I see Sven was right

Fuckin-A, get used to it.

what?

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM | February 6, 2010 12:37 AM

Smart ass. There went your solstice socks. *raspberry*

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM | February 6, 2010 1:24 AM

#368 - No, I'm in a high tartish snit and I've thrown down my OM sock knitting needles.

That'll show Mr. Get Used To It. *snort*

Posted by: Miki Z | February 6, 2010 1:49 AM

Ahh. He's gotten on your wrong side, so it's yarn over, options reduced, and all the worsted for wear, whether or not he laces the thread with apologies. It's a familiar pattern.

Posted by: John Morales | February 6, 2010 1:55 AM

Miki Z, stop being a knitwit!

Posted by: Miki Z | February 6, 2010 2:04 AM

Miki Z, stop being a knitwit!

Yeah, yeah, I'll cast off now.

Posted by: Miki Z | February 6, 2010 2:30 AM

Patricia,

I am undone by 376!

I'm still working on getting consistent tension on my yarn. My wife pointed out that both of my bamboo no. 6 needles are bent and suggested that maybe I pull too hard.

Posted by: Patricia, Ignorant Slut OM | February 6, 2010 2:53 AM

MikiZ - Yes, tension can make you pull too hard. Once those needles start to get bent the only remedy is to go to a bigger size or do a double wrap.

Posted by: Carlie | February 6, 2010 3:13 AM

They just heard you offer the apology for all the monsters of our times. "We did as we were told. We functioned as orders. We merely carried out directives from our superiors."

I was skimming and at first thought that was in reference to the Baptist kidnappers. Then when I realized I was wrong, I thought well, still stands - "We were only doing what we thought God wanted us to do". Then I thought well, that kind of works for every Godly atrocity, doesn't it?

Posted by: jaybgee | February 6, 2010 3:57 AM

So this is totally off-topic to anything that anyone has posted so far: I've never been on any of the endless threads, so I don't know how this usually works. Do people just talk about anything?

Because I wanted to ask you guys for some good reading to learn more about history, especially western history, since you all seem like such knowledgeable group of people. I feel like I'm lacking in a lot of European history that is relevant to some of the discussions on here.

For example, I don't know much about the Spanish Inquisition or The Crusades. I do have cursory knowledge about those events and could look up stuff on Wikipedia, but I want to have a good comprehensive look at western history.

(I was also reminded of my lack in historical knowledge by someone who stopped by a while ago and asked why people rarely/never bring up the Spanish and Latin American rulers' connection to religion esp. the Catholic Church, and someone said jokingly said they didn't realize Spain had history after Columbus and roughly outlined history as starting in Mesopotamia->Greece->England->USA, which basically applies to the way I was taught history.)

I can't usually sign in to comment at work because the sign in button doesn't exist there (it might be due to the old version of IE the company has that don't allow employees the authorization to update), but I can come back and read any comments addressed to me. Thanks in advance =]

I've just been reading through the comments of posts from the last week to find a short comment I found pretty funny (was probably a sarcastic one) and made my day, but I don't remember what it was, or which post it was from. Sad day.

Posted by: Kausik Datta | February 6, 2010 4:17 AM

My Pow-wow with SC continues: en garde!

I'm trying not to get angry here, but it's difficult.

Why? What purpose will anger have? I do a tremendous respect for your opinions and stances, SC (even if you may not feel the same for mine), and I am trying to discuss my perceptions and observations with you. If you think my views are wrong, teach me. Without getting angry. Please?

From my own experience (that I recounted in the earlier message), Henry is not alone in feeling that way. I have heard others expressing the same sentiments. That's really all that I am saying, nothing more, nothing less.

This is way too broad. Feeling what way? What are "the same sentiments"?

Sorry, SC; I should have been clearer (I was wrong in assuming that threads of a conversation could be picked up just like that). "That way" and "Same sentiments" referred to the feeling of being a victim of anti-Semitism under given circumstances, a feeling shared by Henry and other individuals in my earlier examples.

All I can say is that the situations in which anti-Semitism was brought up may not have actually resulted from any anti-Semitism.

If that's all you can say, then your "at the drop of a hat" and "even" about grant funding and so forth was misleading. If you don't know what led to raising the issue or what the full circumstances are, you don't know enough to present this suggestion of "many" as some sort of reflex or implausible.

I am sorry if my wordings have been misleading, as you say. In my examples, I do know what prompted the discussions and what the general circumstances were, and under those circumstances and for those particular issues, anti-Semitism as the sole cause seemed unlikely. But - you are right - that I didn't (couldn't) probe deep enough to understand exactly what raised the specter of anti-Semitism under those specific circumstances. Therefore, I accept your rebuke that it was inappropriate of me to bring up my observations in the way I did.

First, I don't know Henry Gee. Second, as AJ Milne pointed out, part of what made it so shocking was that I and others hadn't heard that before in any similar circumstances. Brace yourself... I've had many arguments with Jewish people. Never once has anyone said anything like Gee did.

But... But, if you don't know Henry Gee, then - by your reasoning - you shouldn't have commented at all on Henry's accusation of anti-Semitism, because you couldn't have known what or how exactly he felt when he said what he said. Am I misunderstanding your reaction? Please tell me.

You mentioned:

I'm not denying that antisemitism exists.

I know you weren't. :)

I was the one who brought it up on the original thread, to Gee. He said specific things, in a specific context, to and about specific people and groups. If he had pointed to evidence, or if his accusations of "vilification" ever made sense, it would be different. There are antisemitic people, and there is discrimination.

Ah, I think I understand it now. Please correct me if I am wrong. When Henry accused certain people of vilifying him because he was Jewish, he should have provided evidence in support thereof, which he didn't, and that is what you objected to, right? If OTOH you, say, personally knew Henry, you might have understood the reasons why he felt slighted in that specific context, and then you would feel differently about it, is that correct?

And, of course, you'd agree with me that anti-Semitism very much exists in different parts of world, in different societies, right?

You must be joking here. Or you're really not paying attention.

No, SC, I am neither joking, nor being inattentive. I am just trying to maintain the perspective of a written discussion. If you and I were sitting face to face, a lot of these words would be unnecessary, and the discussion could be more focused.

But do remember that at the same time, there is also a lot of hypocrisy intricately woven into the fabric of facts and events.

Word salad.

How so? In the context of the existence of anti-Semitism in different parts of the world, the ongoing conflict between Israel and Palestine, as well as the said conflict's repercussions on the lives of American Jewry, is my statement falsely concocted? When you said:

I didn't mean to imply that ... I don't recognize the non-mention of Palestinians or the hypocrisy this implies in many cases.

you may not be "talking about the Jewish people" (as you said), but I absolutely am. I have met and talked to Jewish individuals who insist that the Palestine-Israel conflict is instigated and maintained solely by Palestine at the behest of the Arab world. Would you tell me that this is not hypocrisy of a kind? And that is the reason why I feel that (I quote my earlier statements) "...the reality for the Jewish people isn't, or rather cannot be, a simple and straightforward us-versus-them or finger-pointing reality" (which you appear to agree with) and that "there have been missteps on all sides". Again, I apologize for not making the statement clearer. By all "sides", I meant all parties to this conflict.

Sooner that fact is recognized and dealt with, more stable and harmonious it would become for humanity as a whole. The relentless bickering and mindless violence and meaningless loss of countless lives must end some time, no? I just hope I'd live to see the day.

Oh, good grief.

Sorry, SC, the expression "good grief" never fails to bring up Charlie Brown in my mind! Did you also do an eyeroll? Pardon my lapse into levity (and my naïveté) and roll your eyes if you must, but I really feel that way. Just as between Israel and Palestine, we have a similar and similarly endless cycle of violence going on between my country and our neighbor on the Western side, a country carved out of my own by the same British Raj.

Suffering and oppression have been and are the reality of many people's lives. Others (and often the suffering and oppressed themselves) think doing something about that is an important way to spend their lives.

Absolutely true. I can't disagree. I have known people who have suffered trauma and great losses, even in my own family. But... I don't know; perhaps I am not putting it through in the right way. What I meant (in my earlier remark about disagreeing with you) was that focusing almost exclusively on suffering and oppression cannot be a healthy way of living, can it? I mean, there has to be something positive in life, something to look forward to, no? Those that have experienced the suffering and oppression would want to work towards ensuring that others never have to undergo the same trauma, wouldn't they? But is the best way to do that, the constant chanting of 'we are victims', to the extent that children in many observant Orthodox Jewish families are routinely told how they have been historically oppressed starting right from their days in Egypt because they are the 'God's Chosen Ones' and that the entire world without is one big cesspool of anti-Semitism? You tell me.

Just as it's true that those who forget history are doomed to repeat it, it's also true that living consistently in the past does not make for a enduring and fulfilling existence.

Yeah, get over it, victims of genocide, discrimination, and abuse.

Wow! That's a nice strawman you've got there. Now stick some pins into it. Did I ever say that?

My firm belief - and one that is shared by many of my Jewish friends - is that given the most amazing intellectual capacity, scholarship and talents of the Jewish people in general,

*eyeroll*

Why eyeroll? Did I make a wrong statement?

First, you need to form a better understanding of the paychological effects of that kind of humiliation and violence, and not just on those who experience them directly. These are not a choice. Really. Second, it's not a blood-feud thing - we all need to keep this in our consciousness. We need to try to understand - to the extent that that's possible, and fortunately it isn't 100% - so that we can see the signs and try to avert it. We need to be aware and vigilant in the present, and that historical knowledge is necessary for this.

Thank you, SC. I accept your admonition as the voice of reason. You are absolutely right here. My views may be partly wrong, partly naïve, but my intentions are honorable - and I continue to learn.

Posted by: jaybgee | February 6, 2010 4:23 AM

@John Morales (384): Well, it's just that I didn't know where to start, and I wanted a book to read. I was hoping for something like Dawkins' TGSOE (which covers a lot of main ideas in a very readable way) but for history instead of evolutionary biology.

Posted by: Miki Z | February 6, 2010 4:41 AM

jaybgee,

I don't read a lot of history, but my wife recommends "A History of Modern Europe" by Merriman for a sweeping view. If you're interested in specific events there are almost certainly better books on those, this is a "one stop shopping" kind of book.

Kausik Datta,

I can't speak to SC's eyeroll, but for me:

My firm belief - and one that is shared by many of my Jewish friends - is that given the most amazing intellectual capacity, scholarship and talents of the Jewish people in general,

is eyerolling because "Jewish people in general" have not shown any particular "amazing intellectual capacity" any more or less than "Norwegians in general", "Telegu in general", "Han Chinese in general", "Kikuyu in general", etc.

Exceptionalism rarely survives scrutiny for any group in which membership is both immutable and unchosen.

Posted by: Rorschach | February 6, 2010 4:47 AM

On a more serious note, have a look at Geoffrey Blainey's "A very short history of the world" or at this one by WH McNeill, but I haven't read it myself.

The Wiki link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Western_civilization

Posted by: windy | February 6, 2010 5:28 AM

I find that problem with a Finnish cocktail called Salmari.

tee hee! (That's flavored with liquorice and ammonium chloride, for you chemistry enthusiasts.)

I hear the Fisherman's Friend version of the drink (Fisu) is popular nowadays. Maybe that would do as a (poor) substitute for Salmari in the diaspora.

Posted by: blf | February 6, 2010 5:51 AM

What should I do?

Look for large beanpods? Run around screaming "They're here already! You're next! You're next!"? And don't go to sleep!

Posted by: SteveV | February 6, 2010 6:23 AM

Miki Z

It's the justify part that really creeps me out - formerly she has been known as the Cornish Imelda Marcos.

Perhaps she's just unwell?

Posted by: negentropyeater | February 6, 2010 6:37 AM

jaygbee,

for an overview of world history, I'd recommend two (in English):

1. Concise Atlas of World History
If, like me, you like to learn from maps...
(this happens to be the book I have in my toilets: every time I go there, I look at a couple of maps at random. If you go there as regularly as I do...)
2. The Rise of the West: A History of the Human Community
A good example of the grand narrative. A tad Eurocentric but a fascinating read.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 6, 2010 7:28 AM

Talking of chemistry accidents, of course the really big one was Bhopal: methyl isocyanate is pretty nasty stuff in the quantities released. People are still suffering and dying from that one a quarter-century later, dangerous chemicals continue to leach from the site, the compensation paid has been derisory, and no-one has yet been prosecuted. What larks! (Just to be clear, this is an anti-corporate-privilege not an anti-chemist point: our long, relatively pain-free lives, and our future hopes of dealing with resource shortages and climate change depend absolutely on the work of chemists, among others.)

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 6, 2010 7:38 AM

jaybgee,

I endorse the recommendation of William McNiel's History of Western Civilization. He's a good writer, something rare among historians. The book is a summary but has a bibliography for specific reading on almost all the topics McNiel touches on. After reading History of Western Civilization I recommend McNiel's The Rise of the West, but you have to know something about Western history before you can fully appreciate this book. It was written in refutation of Oswald Spengler's The Decline of the West, a famous book which I do not recommend until you have a good background in Middle Eastern and European history.

If you're stuck on a desert island for several weeks you could read Will and Ariel Durant's eleven volume The Story of Civilization. The Durants intended to go from the beginning of writing to the 20th Century but only got as far as the Napoleonic period before they died. I've read the whole series but it took me several years to do so.

An interesting book on how civilizations arise is Jared Diamond's Guns, Germs and Steel. It's not a history but a look at how environmental factors influence civilizations.

Posted by: Rorschach | February 6, 2010 7:48 AM

KG, how did you end up getting mentioned for computer programs in "The blind watchmaker" when you did chemistry ?

:-)

If you're stuck on a desert island for several weeks you could read Will and Ariel Durant's eleven volume The Story of Civilization

Or just get a tan....

Posted by: SteveV | February 6, 2010 8:04 AM

failed
try again

Try again

Posted by: Sili | February 6, 2010 8:17 AM

Quite a few purls among those puns.

On the subject of chem jobs and Big Pharma check out Derek Lowe. He's an excellent writer and far as I can tell talented chemist. I deplore a good deal of his politics - he's one of those who must not be named. And he's utterly wrong on AGW, which is a sad to see in a chemist.

For 'chemistry dick' check out his Things I Won't Work With tag.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 6, 2010 9:57 AM

I want to have a good comprehensive look at western history. - jaybgee

I'd recommend, if you can get them, a series of 4 Penguin historical atlases by Colin McEvedy:
The New Penguin Atlas of Ancient History,
The New Penguin Atlas of Medieval History,
The New Atlas of Modern History (to 1815),
The New Penguin Atlas of Recent History (from 1815).
These all cover Europe (except the far north) and the non-European areas around the Mediterranean; the first two cover more of western Asia as well, while the third intersperses a few world maps to show European colonisation.

McEvedy, who died before he could update the third of the series, wasn't a professional historian, but as he says, most professionals concentrate on one century or even one generation, often in one country. Not everything in these atlases accords with recent research, but they are immensely informative and entertaining, and even taking the four together, quite short. He also did
The Penguin Atlas of African History (rather out of date as published in 1975) and
The Penguin Atlas of North American History. One warning: Atlases inevitably draw sharp lines around political and cultural entities that were not necessarily there!

For western history since early modern times, I recommend Fernand Braudel's Civilisation and Capitalism, 15th-18th Century (three large volumes, focused on the economy, originally in French but there's an English translation), or if you want something briefer (you probably do!), John Darwin's After Tamerlane: The Rise and Fall of Global Empires, 1400-2000. Both these focus on "the west", but put it in a global context which indicates (this may be partly my interpretation) that it's "rise" wasn't a result of some fundamental difference between Europe and the other mass societies of Eurasia, which are often wrongly seen as unchanging and stagnant, but of a few specific geographical and technological advantages, leveraged by cunning and ruthlessness into global dominance and exploitation, which in turn fuelled the industrial revolution.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 6, 2010 10:20 AM

Rorschach's mention of William H. McNeill reminds me of his Plagues and Peoples, which gives an entirely different perspective to the usual histories of wars and economies: the role of epidemic disease in history. And for yet another angle, Arnold Pacey's Technology in World Civilisation: A Thousand Year History, about the spread of technological developments across Eurasia and eventually beyond.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 6, 2010 11:01 AM

I have never had an argument with a Jain. I think I could.... - SC,OM

I'm sure you could, SC! The Jain interpretation of ahimsa is so strict that it is quite impossible to follow its precepts fully if you engage in any sort of manual labour. Monks, nuns, and a rich minority who try to follow the rules completely depend on laypeople who "do the dirty work", and there are many essential occupations that even the latter are not allowed to follow, so in a sense, the whole Jain community necessarily relies on non-Jains to allow them to follow their religion. To many westerners, at any rate, this looks hypocritical.

However, given the Jain strictures on "verbal violence", you might find that Jains would refuse to argue with you! (But then by refusing to argue, they might be said to be doing violence to you...)

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 6, 2010 11:48 AM

re Dogfish Head IPAs: Almost certainly the 60-minute in the 6-pack and the 90 in the 4-pack. If Stone's Ruination is a bit too much, you're likely to feel the same way about the 90-minute (I do, usually...maybe as a nightcap sometimes). The 60 is almost perfectly balanced, crisp, bitter, hoppy as hell, yum yum yum
(full disclosure: almost noon and still recovering from last night's indulgence in the yum yum)

blood plasma or something came out

*eyebrows up*
Turns out that blood plasma, lymph, and interstitial fluid are all one big well-mixed pool, so it doesn't really matter what you call it.
But if fluid was leaking out, what was getting in?

Posted by: strange gods before me, OM | February 6, 2010 12:21 PM

Knockgoats, cleanup in aisle W, Knockgoats.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 6, 2010 12:24 PM

Here's what I learned yesterday:
Drosophila has the same entire set of insulin sending-and-receiving genes as we do, and its functionss are identical (secretion signalled by increased "blood" glucose, cells with insulin receptors ramp up glucose transport and storage, amino acid uptake and protein synthesis, and triglyceride uptake and fat storage, etc.) to those in mammals.

This means that microscopic pre-Cambrian worms did exactly the same. Pretty cool.
Your Inner Worm.

(btw, that's my guess for the theme of PZ's upcoming book--a Shubin-like thing but with human development and physiology compared to various inverts to illustrate the longtime conservation and/or modification of shared-inherited molecular pathways. you saw it here first.)

Posted by: Sili | February 6, 2010 12:29 PM

We see too little of dr* Sid Schwab here, so allow me to pimp him pimping Barney Frank.

*surgeon, not ph.d. - I know some here (and elsewhere) are sensitive about the title.

Also a Vietnam vet. Speaking of which, what happened to BrokenSoldier,OM?

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 6, 2010 1:08 PM

David Marjanović #416

Spengler had enormous knowledge (and not just about European history – he knew full well about the tradition of atheism in India, for instance). He tried to find all manner of cyclical patterns in history and shored up lots of support for each.

Spengler rejected traditional unilinear accounts and causal explanations of historical developments. Instead he saw cyclic patterns in history. "Each culture has its own new possibilities of self-expression which arise, ripen, decay and never return."¹

The central theme in The Decline of the West is that all higher cultures go through a life cycle analogous to a living organism, from birth to maturation to inevitable decline. Spengler also used the analogy of four seasons: the spring (birth and infancy), summer (youth), fall (maturity), and winter (old age and decay). He claimed there were eight cultures which were self-contained and have a distinctive "soul": the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Ancient Semitic (Babylonian), the Indian, the Magian (roughly Arabic), the Apollonian or Greco-Roman, the Faustian or Western, and Mayan. Each of these cultures had an identical life-cycle lasting many centuries.

Spengler held a cultural revealed itself in art, mathematics, philosophy, sciences, music, drama, and poetry, all of which reflect the essence of of that particular culture. "There are several number-worlds as there are several Cultures. We find an Indian, an Arabian, a Classical as Western type of mathematical thought, and corresponding with each, a type of number - each type fundamentally peculiar and unique, an expression of a specific world-feeling..."² Each of the civilizations had its special driving idea (Urphänomen). Western culture is characterized by its restless thrust toward the infinite. In architecture this is seen in Gothic cathedrals and in painting in the use of depth perspective, parallel lines which meet in infinity. Spengler believed that his own era, Faustian, had reached its last stage. Signs of cultural decay were, among other things, atonal music, art produced for oversensitive connoisseurs, manipulation of the public opinion by mass media, imperialism, and "Caesarism," a universal will to power which breaks the dictatorship of plutocracy and its political ally democracy. According to Spengler, Russia did not belong to Western culture. A Faustian soul looks upward, a Russian soul toward the horizon. Thus Russian Urphänomen is the boundless steppe.

Spengler's views are both influential and controversial. They're also, for those of us living in modern times, depressing.

¹Spengler, Oswald. The Decline of the West. Ed. Arthur Helps and Helmut Werner. Trans. Charles F. Atkinson. New York: Oxford University Press, 1991. P. ii.

²Ibid p. 12.

Posted by: Alan B | February 6, 2010 2:28 PM

#355 Rawnaeris

I am a retired industrial chemist, working on a large industrial site (a civil nuclear power station).

To get an idea of the job, I was responsible for 3 major areas:

1) Chemical Safety of the staff.

If you know the UK system that means H&S; at work, COSHH, CHIP Regs, COMAH and Confined Space Entry. Risk Assessment of Work Order Cards, safety walks around the plant looking for problems before they happened (e.g. rusting of drums, leaking glands and flanges on plant). Advising on safe working practices. How can we get the same job done but reducing the risks to the health and safety of staff?

2) Safety and Protection of the Environment.

Like just about every large industrial site we had strict regulations on what we could discharge to the environment. The Station Chemist, me, was responsible for making sure we could prove that we kept within those limits. Ensure procedures in place for analysis and assessment of the effectiveness of systems to protect the environment. Liaise with the Environmental Protection Agency (one of our Regulators).

Both the above are bread and butter statutory requirements. Absolutely essential if the Company is going to stay out of Court.

3) Long term protection of the plant

Especially from corrosion. Analysis for trace levels of imputities, ensuring quality control of the analytical lab (Shewart and Range Control Charts). Ensure chemical corrosion control (e.g. inhibitors, dosing of chemicals) is done to the correct levels. Provide advice to anyone and everyone on the site about rusting, corrosion, chemical releases, chemical cleaning of plant components - how to do it safely and effectively at minimum cost.

This gives you an idea of real day to day industrial chemistry which is the bread and butter of a whole range of industries. Not exciting - you won't get to blow people up with nitrogen tri-iodide or picric acid (indeed, that would be a great way to get sacked on the spot). Nobody did that where I worked. Nobody wanted to be thrown off site the same day with no chance whatsoever of a claim for unfair dismissal. In the categories of chemical dick comparison we would have come in the castrated category.

Personally (and not entirely because I ended up on the top of the local pile) I found it fascinating and challenging. You have contact with top management and staff at all levels on the site. People ask your advice (and almost always act on it). You have good interfaces with other sites within the same company. You deal with Regulators within and outside the Company. You are in some ways a jack of all trades - popping up in all sorts of areas - but also a master of your own discipline as it applies to your site.

This is far removed from a research lab but it is what many industries (not just chemistry and pharmaceuticals) require. Much of the work is fiarly routine physical chemistry and chemical safety rather than exciting things pushing back the frontiers of science but it is an important job.

I used to think of the chemist as being the conscience of the site.

The work I have outlined here was done by chemists, in an autonomous chemistry section. Similar work may well require a chemist to be within a safety or environmental section.

I can only suggest you cast your net widely and think very hard about what the company might actually need. Are they looking for an expert in organic synthesis or someone prepared to get their hands dirty working alongside engineers and craftsmen?

If you struggle with finding work then think about how you can widen your skill base by taking courses on environmental protection, chemical safety, Health and Safety Regulations, statistics and data handling, the use of computers for data storage and manipulation - anything that interests you and makes you more marketable.

Best wishes Alan B

Posted by: https://www.google.com/accounts/o8/id?id=AItOawmHzDpTLP2mp-qpt639sa9q2J8Wl4QREfQ | February 6, 2010 3:09 PM

Knockgoats @404

Richard Kemp by any chance?
I was looking for "Julie’s been working for the Drug squad" by the Clash but cannot find it.

The police operation to catch Kemp was code named Operation Julie, there is an (apocryphal possibly) story that the police broke into a store of LSD with sledgehammers with trippy results for the officers concerned. The story goes that he was caught because his colleagues were buying large amounts of Lactose to cut the Acid and make tablets-they (and many others) weren’t aware that Lactose sales were watched. He still managed to buy several kilos of Ergotamine base on the Continent without arousing suspicion.
Kemp was a damn fine chemist by all accounts who radically improved the Acid synthesis, I believe, from reports at the time, his reasons were politico-religious being a follower of people like Timothy Leary.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 6, 2010 3:20 PM

Feynmaniac #426

If they ever come out with Civ V maybe they should incorporate some ideas of the book. Like having crops/livestock being able to spread, but only to the appropriate squares. Also, having plagues arise in dense populations. Your population eventually grows immune, but is able to spread it to other civilizations (although this might be controversial*).

In the CivIV Thomas' War mod (BTS V3.19 patch) you can infect cities with the Great Doctor¹ character. 8 turns of +1 unhealthy plus 20% chance of spreading to another city in the same civ). You take a -2 influence hit with the plagued civ. In the later game you can unleash biological warfare on an enemy with a plague bomb on a missile. I've never done it, so I don't know how biowar works.

¹Oddly enough the Great Doctor doesn't give a health benefit if put in a city. The benefits are +1 Food, +1 Gold, +3 Great Person production. It can also be used to build unlimited Red Cross national wonders (medic promotion to units built in a city).

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 6, 2010 3:42 PM

Most flights from Ireland go to Boston or New York. Boston is snow-free.

Posted by: Ichthyic | February 6, 2010 3:58 PM

don't know if this has been mentioned yet:

http://www.generationrescue.org/wakefield_statement2.html

More reinforcement of "Big Pharma + Govt" conspiracy theories, by these two utter nutbars.

I've decided that the next antivaxer I run into who spouts off on mercury and autism again will be forced to answer the following 4 questions, or told to STFU:

1. Which vaccines, if any, still utilize mercury preparations as preservatives?

2. EXACTLY how much reactive (as in not inert) mercury will be retained in a human body after a typical vaccine dose that still uses mercury as a preservative?

3. How much reactive mercury will be retained after the ingestion of a typical can of tuna?

4. How much accumulated bio-active mercury does it take for the average human being to start seeing adverse effects? How much for an infant?

They have to be able to answer all four questions accurately, or be told they are nothing but ignorant nutjobs, doing more harm than good. All of the above can easily be answered with just 30 minutes of research.

I know for a fact that not a single anti-vaxer has ever bothered to take the 30 minutes to actually find out the answers to these things.

Posted by: Alan B | February 6, 2010 4:12 PM

#430 Owlmirror

You have some great dreams!

Posted by: Bone Oboe | February 6, 2010 4:33 PM

Also Carlie @ #381

Then I thought well, that kind of works for every Godly atrocity, doesn't it?

Yes, it certainly does.

I can't help but wonder if those people would be moldering in jail down there if there hadn't had their brains fogged up by the Jebus; that if they were thinking clearly (as opposed to biblicaly), they likely would have taken time to do the necessary paper work and not have run afoul of the law.

Child trafficking? I don't know, I'm not a mind reader. Uncomfortably, dangerously naive; as in "We're wearing our 'Armour of God' PJ's" and can do no wrong as a result"? Very likely whether kidnapping and child trafficking was their intent or not.

Posted by: Sili | February 6, 2010 4:55 PM

I believe this is one of the occasions that calls for embedding.

"This is what Men do"

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 6, 2010 6:18 PM

I didn't realize we had so many chemists posting here. I knew Nerd and Alan B were chemists, but I didn't know about all the others.

Posted by: Sili | February 6, 2010 6:37 PM

Well, some of us are failed chemists.

(And worse, failed crystallographers.)

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 6, 2010 6:57 PM

I'm still not quite sure how I survived those physics labs where we handled radioactive material.

I spent over five years working around nuclear reactors. Other than my daughter having trouble getting shirts that fit properly, there's been no effects.

Picture of my daughter.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 6, 2010 7:20 PM

He [Spengler] tried to find all manner of cyclical patterns in history and shored up lots of support for each. - David Marjanović

I've never read Spengler, but efforts to find cyclical patterns in history are many. One school of thought I'm interested in, world-systems theory, goes in for them (but within a longer-timescale secular dynamic), and I've not reached a conclusion about whether there's anything in the "long cycles" they and others claim to detect. There obviously are short (and not very regular) "business cycles", but the most popular "long cycle" is the "Kondratiev cycle" of 50-60 years. I wonder if there are cyclical trends in the fashion for cyclical theories of history?

On the chemistry theme, does anyone know whether it's true, as I've heard, that chemists have significantly reduced life expectancy when compared with other natural scientists - not so much due to accidents, as to repeated low-level exposure to multiple poisons?

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | February 6, 2010 7:26 PM

Speaking of grog, anybody heard from Josh the geologist recently? Or, is he off on another if he told us, he would have to kill us, mission?

Posted by: SteveV | February 6, 2010 7:46 PM

KG #449
IIRC Asimov's 'Search for the Elements?' claimed that several 19C chemists died young in the attempt to isolate fluorine. Don't know if it's still true though.

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 6, 2010 7:53 PM

Walton,

Read the Tory-supporting press: the Sun, Mail, Express, Times, Telegraph. How much support do you see there for civil liberties, for reducing the prison population, for legalising cannabis?

*crickets*

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 6, 2010 7:56 PM

Walton,

Read the Tory-supporting press: the Sun, Mail, Express, Times, Telegraph. How much support do you see there for civil liberties, for reducing the prison population, for legalising cannabis?

*crickets*

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 6, 2010 8:01 PM

Sorry about the double post - my broadband is playing up. Anyhow, time for bed. Goodnight, Pharyngulistas!

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 6, 2010 8:09 PM

But if fluid was leaking out, what was getting in?

No idea. I did try to keep everything water-soluble off that hand, other than water itself.

Of course we all realize that the nitrogen oxide mentioned is the trioxide.

Dioxide. NO₂.

I forgot to mention copper azide. Has to be prepared under incandes[c]ent light. Shorter wavelenghts detonate it. I prepared it once at night.

I can't tell if you're kidding. I call Poe's Law on heavy-metal azides!

(...Well, I could tell, by just looking it up in Wikipedia. But that would so ruin the point.)

The question is, did you use it as an impressive party trick?

What is that "party" you speak of? Is it something to eat?

Or perhaps as a gimmick to create your own cult? (See the Amazing Marjanović, who has the miracle of instant stigmata on one hand!)

Good idea, except I didn't bleed. Just droplets of a colorless, slightly sticky liquid.

(Interstitial liquid and lymph were the terms I was looking for.)

the dictatorship of plutocracy and its political ally democracy.

Yeah, I found that a bit weird.

I read they were looking to give each religion in Civ 4 its own set of advantages/disadvantages, but dropped the idea for controversy it would undoubtedly produce.

The book doesn't mention whether they wanted to give each its own set, but it makes explicit that all are exactly equal to give everyone the same low level of offense.

You have some great dreams!

Most definitely. Mine are almost never about interesting or otherwise pleasant topics, incredibly incoherent <facepalm>, and whenever I try to read anything, the text changes in front of my eyes... I even notice that I'm making the text up as I go along and sometimes run out of imagination.

"This is what Men do"

Cannot be said often enough.

What about the part where find out you have superhuman strength?

Alas. I'm decidedly on the wimpish side of things. Long arms, mechanical disadvantage for the muscles...

I didn't realize we had so many chemists posting here. I knew Nerd and Alan B were chemists, but I didn't know about all the others.

I had an interesting chemistry teacher in school*, participated in the chemistry olympics** (got up to the national level in the last year, 2000), and studied it for a year. Then I had to give up. The math knocked me out like an exsiccator mishap, so I had to change over to molecular biology*** and got to play with a nice stinky thiol, a thiosugar or something (less stinky, but still), ethidium bromide (the horror, the horror), and liquid nitrogen. Oh, and in the lab course Organic Chemistry for Molecular Biologists I got to weigh some amine, I think trimethyl amine, which is trickier than it sounds.****

* We made, like, copious amounts of tear gas. Hey, it's easy – just take anything and brominate it. It's not police-grade, but serious enough!
** Gunpowder... nitroglycerine, though we didn't dare dry it, which means the great hammer moment was for naught...
*** All this alongside biology → paleobiology.
**** It's a liquid, but you can't pour it on one of those concave glass thingies and put that on the scales, because it evaporates too quickly. You have to cover it immediately. Finding this out and then getting the "immediately" part right requires several attempts. Also, distinctive odor. Think fish, only concentrated.

Posted by: SteveV | February 6, 2010 8:26 PM

Sili #441
Must watch that series again
Terry Pratchet gave the Dimbleby Lecture last Monday mentioned upthread. It was named for

Richard Dimbleby

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | February 6, 2010 8:30 PM

David M: Yes I meant dioxide. The colorless NO reacts with O2 and forms orange NO2. Pulled a mean trick on a girl with an apparently empty bottle in her locker. She opened it during her next class. The teacher looked up to see an orange cloud rising from a row of desks.

BS

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | February 6, 2010 8:36 PM

I find NO and NO₂ to be much more scary than HCN. Their effects don't show up until several hours later (pulmonary edema). With HCN, you are either down or OK.

Posted by: boygenius | February 6, 2010 8:43 PM

I find NO and NO2 to be much more scary than HCN. Their effects don't show up until several hours later

I much prefer N₂O. The effects show up immediately, and don't last long.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 6, 2010 8:46 PM

Sili @#441, damn. I'm fucking weeping here.

Posted by: Rawnaeris | February 6, 2010 8:54 PM

Coherency Fail.

I had four profs who all *made* their own beer.
And the rest of them could drink us undergrads under the table.

Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space | February 6, 2010 9:01 PM

Re: Cycles in history

"History doesn't repeat; but it rhymes."--Mark Twain

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 6, 2010 9:07 PM

I once tried to make dandelion wine. After several weeks of fermenting I got an awful looking mixture of piss-yellow liquid and green sludge. No, I didn't try it.

Posted by: David Marjanović | February 6, 2010 9:23 PM

NO, on the other hand, is a little molecule with great physiological significance.

Nature (News & Views) or Science (News Focus) headline from maybe 15 years ago: "Plants just say NO to aggressors"... It's made by white blood cells, too, along with various peroxides and even chlorine, for doing random harm to pathogens.

Nitroglycerin (heart medicine, remember?) and Viagra lead to higher NO levels and thus blood vessel dilatation.

Posted by: boygenius | February 6, 2010 9:34 PM

Two words: fractionation column.

So, when ATF breaks down my door I can say "That's not a moonshine still, it's a fractionation column."?

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | February 6, 2010 9:46 PM

N2O

While N₂O may have physiological properties (I had some for dental work once), it is also an oxidizer used in hybrid rocket engines. This includes SpaceShipOne, which won the X-prize for the first commercial space ship. Also used by the Mythbusters for their attempt to duplicate the rumored Confederate rocket.

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | February 6, 2010 9:51 PM

NSFJ:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWBpUy87lFs

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | February 6, 2010 9:58 PM

The fractionation column sets on top of the boiling vessel and just below the condenser. From the font of all knowledge.
The effect is as if you repeated the distillation many, many times. I would get 180 proof on a single pass.
Just pack a vertical copper tube with stainless steel pot scrubbers and you are good to go.
Shortly after this, I gave up drinking altogether.

BS

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | February 6, 2010 10:08 PM

I would get 180 proof on a single pass.

Not to mention ketones, aldehydes and various esters.

Posted by: boygenius | February 6, 2010 10:33 PM

Not to mention ketones, aldehydes and various esters.

Do you mention this as a feature or a bug? Overly pure distillations lose their character. And IMHO, hangovers build character.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | February 6, 2010 10:41 PM

The taste, but also the hangover ingredients...

wiki denies this and gives a reference.

Contrary to popular belief, studies indicate that fusel alcohol has no more significant undesirable health effects (headache, nausea, etc.) than ethanol, the primary active ingredient in all alcoholic beverages.[2]

BS

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | February 6, 2010 10:44 PM

An ex-neighbor of the Redhead's parents, who used to be a moonshiner, said a little of this fraction needed to be mixed back in for a some "flavor", which increased his price.

An old moonshiner from Georgia, when asked if his product had been aged said "shore it has. I drove slow into town."

BS

Posted by: boygenius | February 6, 2010 10:49 PM

Nerd,

What part of "I'm an ignoramus when it comes to chemistry" didn't you get. :) What I mean to ask is, how is LSD₂₅ unstable? I've kept it on blotter paper wrapped in tinfoil in the freezer for years without a noticeable (subjective observation warning) change in effects.

Or does d-lysergic acid diethylamide convert to various lysergamides once ingested? Or is this whole topic way over my head?

Posted by: boygenius | February 6, 2010 10:54 PM

BTW, nice Loser, Sven.

Me likey!

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | February 6, 2010 11:00 PM

Boygenius, if the amide function converts to anything, it most likely hydrolyzes and becomes just lysergic acid. Wiki has some info on this, including the stability in the dark freezer.

Posted by: boygenius | February 6, 2010 11:07 PM

Thanks Nerd and BS. I shall commence reading.

Posted by: bullofthewoods | February 6, 2010 11:10 PM

Blind Squirrel@478.
Yeah, how many homebrewers hang out here?
I've been homebrewing for about fifteen years now.
I got started by acquiring a taste for really good beer when I was in the navy.When I moved back to my childhood home(south Alabama)there was nothing but domestic swill.I had to drive an hour to Pensacola,Fl. every week or so to stock up.
Well that got old fast,so I purchased all the ingredients and supplies etc. and have been crafting some fine beers and some that weren't so fine ever since.
Right now I have five gallons of wort working based on a Dutch lager recipe. Hey a country boy can survive.

Posted by: Blind Squirrel FCD | February 6, 2010 11:20 PM

for those who don't know, "fusel" is also a German term for shitty liquor.

Be dammed, so it is!

FUSEL OIL (from the Ger. Fusel, bad spirits),

BS

Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM | February 6, 2010 11:26 PM

Fusel oil is real term. Basically, any alcohols higher (longer chained, hence higher boiling point) than ethanol. They can have (pure) distinctive odors. Butanol is not one of my favorites. [/pedant]

Posted by: windy | February 7, 2010 12:23 AM

The first one is correct!

Posted by: Ichthyic | February 7, 2010 1:42 AM

mmm, tapeworms:

http://theoatmeal.com/comics/tapeworm

don't forget to find out your tapeworm carrying capacity by taking the quiz at the end.

I, unfortunately, could only support one sad little tapeworm.

Posted by: Miki Z | February 7, 2010 1:52 AM

Not only did it change in meaning the second time around, it also changed from English to Japanese.

Ahh, a henna dream.

Posted by: Paul W. | February 7, 2010 2:17 AM

I've had clear yellow liquid flow out of my nose after my head got glanced by a foot (in a consensual setting).

The same thing happened to me in junior high school, when I got tackled hard in football and my head clonked on the ground. I assume I'd had a clogged sinus that I didn't know about, and that drained it. Yum.

Posted by: Kel, OM | February 7, 2010 2:37 AM

A few years ago I had to take a couple of exams again (I failed both, but not by much. So I had the chance to resit them a month later). This was a time when the next semester had already started, so I had 4 subjects to do assignments for as well as studying for those two additional exams. Anyway one night I dreamt it was the end of the year and that I was with my family awaiting my marks. In the dream I had the realisation that I didn't remember doing my additional exams yet. So if it was the end of the year and I had no recollection of taking those examinations - it must have mean I missed them!

I woke up in complete panic and very quickly got on the computer to check the date. It took a bit for me to fully grasp that it was just a dream even if the surreal imagery therein somehow didn't give it away (I was standing on a mountain in South Australia overlooking wineries).

Posted by: boygenius | February 7, 2010 2:50 AM

it's != its, dammit

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 7, 2010 3:52 AM

Richard Kemp by any chance? #429

No, much, much smaller scale. The whole thing probably never got beyond the local papers, and the conviction may be spent now (I don't know the rules on this), so I certainly wouldn't mention his name!

Posted by: ambulocetacean | February 7, 2010 3:59 AM

FFS, I make the effort to write something into Notepad so it's not all full of typos, and what do I get? A bunch of phantom paragraph breaks...

Posted by: Kel, OM | February 7, 2010 4:15 AM

Don't bother trying to get Chris Mooney to build me a bridge over this. I'm not buying.

I think Chris Mooney wants to build David a bridge, not you. If only David would reach out to you...

Chris Mooney is an intelligent guy, why did he have to crawl up his own arse?

Posted by: Knockgoats | February 7, 2010 4:56 AM

Jadehawk,

I still find myself back at school in dreams, having for some reason to take an extra "A" level. This is only one of a number of dreams on the same theme - dreaming I never actually got my PhD, or have to complete another thesis, or have been in a new job involving teaching for months and haven't actually done any. I suspect my final moments will be occupied with the thought "Oh, shit! I've got to give my thesis in tomorrow and I don't even know what it's about!".

I've done a bit of lucid dreaming (knowing you're dreaming while in the dream). Usually, I am dreaming I'm flying, often having taken off to escape a pursuer, and after the delight in finding I can fly, it occurs to me that in fact I can't, so this must be a dream. I've tried manipulating the dream, which works to some extent, but usually I either wake, or slip back into a non-lucid state, fairly quickly. Apparently it's possible to learn to induce lucid dreaming fairly reliably, and control content fairly effectively, so you might try that with your sex-dreams: go to sleep fantasising about whatever you fantasise about, but keep in mind some special "indicator" that will tell you that you're dreaming if it arises. (I haven't tried this myself.)

Posted by: Walton | February 7, 2010 5:21 AM

Knockgoats,

Walton, it seemed sensible to bring this here now I've finally got round to reading it, rather than zombify that thread. What you say is true, and if I gave the impression I wanted direct democracy now, or implemented in a single step, I should not have done so. What you miss, apparently, is the connection between the two truths you point out: the rich and powerful do not want an educated and enlightened populace - except insofar as their education is necessary to generate profit. Look at the popular press and most TV in the UK, at Fox TV in the USA: mass stupidity, superstition and prejudice are in the interests of the ruling class. I'm not saying stupidity, prejudice and superstition would magically disappear overnight if the media changed, but they are the main force preserving and deepening these features of the populace. That's as true in Switzerland and California as anywhere else. Of course, you can't see this, because you are still taken in by so many media-generated myths yourself.

I think that's a bit too simplistic. Some commercial media outlets certainly do promote stupidity, prejudice and superstition, but others promote more enlightened values; it all depends on who owns the media outlet in question, and on the kind of people they employ. Ultimately, the media (like every other human endeavour) is run by human beings, and human beings do not always act according to deterministic class interests. Empirically, it's pretty clear that "the media" is not a monolithic block dedicated uniformly to upholding the class interests of the wealthy and poweful.

The American TV industry, for example, spans a range of political outlooks from hardline right-wing (Fox) to centre-left (MSNBC), with most of the major networks somewhere in the middle. From your perspective as a socialist, I don't doubt that they all seem comparatively conservative and dedicated to upholding the existing capitalist order (which is not surprising, of course, since successful TV networks are by definition beneficiaries of the existing capitalist order); but it's rather silly to disregard the differences between these media outlets. They are certainly not all promoting the same message, and I think it's a little unfair to see them all as dedicated to perpetuating "stupidity, prejudice and superstition". Fox is not promoting the same message or the same values as CNN or MSNBC. They appeal to different markets and different types of people.

Similarly, in the UK, our press ranges from the Daily Mail on the right to the Guardian on the left, with a range of other publications in between. Again, you might say that none of them is left-wing enough for your preference; but that doesn't mean you can disregard the differences in values and agenda between them. So I do think that a commercial media industry with heavy competition, such as we have in the UK and US, leads to value-pluralism and to the expression of a range of different beliefs.

I think you're making the mistake of seeing "the wealthy and powerful" as if they were a single bloc who work together to promote a shared class interest. In reality, the wealthiest and most powerful people are often in competition with each other, and have no desire to promote one another's interests. Ultimately, each media outlet is dedicated to making money for itself. This means it has to draw in viewers with sensational news; but sometimes the way to do this is, in fact, to attack the wealthy and powerful. Hence why news stories painting big corporations in a bad light are, actually, quite common.

Don't get me wrong; I'm not praising the existing situation. Indeed, the biggest down-side to the broad range of media outlets is that most people tend to get their news only from the sources which agree with their own pre-existing convictions. So a staunch conservative will read the Daily Mail or the Telegraph in the UK, or watch Fox News in the US; whereas a left-winger is more likely to read the Guardian or the Independent in the UK, or watch MSNBC in the US. This means that many people's existing worldview is rarely challenged by new information, and their biases are consistently confirmed. Unfortunately, I can't see any way around this. Ultimately, any kind of media industry, whether state-controlled or commercially-controlled, will incorporate some level of propaganda and untruth; human beings in general are corruptible, and those who run media outlets are no exception to this rule.

Sorry for the long, rambling post; I haven't finished my coffee yet. :-)

Posted by: ambulocetacean | February 7, 2010 5:31 AM

Yes, sorry, I was just kidding. And I know that lymphatic system is serious business. I had a friend who had her nodes taken out in a temporarily successful attempt to stop her breast cancer spreading around her body.

I was being silly, but I thought I was being silly enough for people to realise I was being silly. I do sincerely apologise if I caused offence.

If you were to be charitable to me, though, you might say that I was illustrating a point about how people find it hard to believe in things thaey can't see or understand (apart from gods, obviously). I kind of had the anti-vax crowd in mind :(

Posted by: John Morales | February 7, 2010 5:59 AM

Jadehawk, there's a bunch of stuff there that begs for criticism... but I'm not about to do it.

Well, except for one thing.

Knockgoats: "[...] the rich and powerful do not want an educated and enlightened populace - except insofar as their education is necessary to generate profit."

Walton: "I think you're making the mistake of seeing "the wealthy and powerful" as if they were a single bloc who work together to promote a shared class interest."